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  • #61
    Originally posted by Sofonda
    So Kitsune....are you on the site's official welcoming comittee?
    No, but I am. :D Welcome to MWM, Sofonda. It's sorta like Tanelorn, so try not to get too addicted.

    Of course, even Tanelorn isn't always immune to chaotic assault. As my friend Zakas would say, "Illegitimus non Carborundum". (Easier said than done, of course.)
    "Wounds are all I'm made of. Did I hear you say that this is victory?"
    --Michael Moorcock, Veteran of the Psychic Wars

    Comment


    • #62
      "But he does have segments regularly where he invites people who "hate" him to come on the air and have some intelligent discourse, and eat some great BBQ while doing it. I think he is very sensitive to the issues and to where people of all beliefs are coming from."

      Well, I will keep listening; if nothing else it is interesting. How do I get some of that BBQ, though?? Think he'll have me on his show??

      Comment


      • #63
        Have you seen this, Psychic? Is this Zakt's site?

        http://www.mccmusic.com/inc.htm

        Comment


        • #64
          While I admit calling Franken a twit is a personal attack against Al Fraken and a little hypocritical; I A: Didn't publish a book titled "AL Franken is a Twit" and B: Didn't involve myself in a personal attack on anyone on the board. Your attacks on my spelling are irrelevant, you are basically tying to make the implied argument that because I make typos and misspellings that I am not intelligent and that my arguments are not valid. I will be the first to admit that my spelling sucks, but with a language like English, that's hardly an indication of low intelligence.

          Originally posted by PsychicWarVeteran
          Originally posted by Kitsune
          Then you shouldn't be pimping Al Frakin.
          *unable to hold his tongue any longer, PWV bleats*

          Dude, it's FRANKEN.

          And you're acting like a troll, Kitsune. You've mentioned twice now in other threads that it's boring when everyone agrees. This is the wrong way to get your beloved disagreement.

          Start saying things of substance and, for crying out loud, open a dictionary! I'm sure I'm not the only one here who rolls their eyes every time you pipe up with some banal comment, misspelling the most rudimentary words.

          By the way, dictionary.com defines "twit" as "a foolishly annoying person". Seems to me your assessment of Al Franken is a case of pot and kettle.

          *shuffles off grumbling, in search of coffee*

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Bill
            Have you seen this, Psychic? Is this Zakt's site?

            http://www.mccmusic.com/inc.htm
            Not zakt -- he's a gentleman in Scotland and his website is here. (I once got the two confused, too.)

            But the site you linked to is one of the ones that advertises the music of Steve Zakas, known here as DyvimTvar'sBodyguard (and HellHound). I have both of his CDs. You can hear a piece of his song "Hounds of the Horn" here: http://www.mccmusic.com/hounds.htm Check it out. (I wish you could har more, because it's really good.)
            "Wounds are all I'm made of. Did I hear you say that this is victory?"
            --Michael Moorcock, Veteran of the Psychic Wars

            Comment


            • #66
              Air America isn't broadcast where I live, but if it was was, I'd give it a shot.

              I must admit much of my oppinion of Al Fraken was formed before I had any idea of his political leanings. I worked at Radio Shack for a few years, and they used to have an interview with Al Franken running on the tape that they'd play on the VCRs. He was basically telling us how original this idiot character he was playing in "Late Line" was, while doing a bit that was just a variant of something out of "I Love Lucy." It's possible and prerhapse even likely that my oppinions were colored by the fact that this stuff played over and over again. I have simillar reactions to Adam Sandler for the same reason.


              Originally posted by Bill
              "But he does have segments regularly where he invites people who "hate" him to come on the air and have some intelligent discourse, and eat some great BBQ while doing it. I think he is very sensitive to the issues and to where people of all beliefs are coming from."

              Well, I will keep listening; if nothing else it is interesting. How do I get some of that BBQ, though?? Think he'll have me on his show??

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Kitsune
                While I admit calling Franken a twit is a personal attack against Al Fraken and a little hypocritical...
                A little hypocritical?

                Originally posted by Kitsune
                ...Didn't involve myself in a personal attack on anyone on the board.
                Never said you did, but you cannot deny that your posts contain the nuances of textbook trolling.

                Originally posted by Kitsune
                Your attacks on my spelling are irrelevant...
                This rebuttal of yours is irrelevant, since my main issue was your trolling for discord by making blanket banal statements.

                Originally posted by Kitsune
                ...you are basically tying to make the implied argument that because I make typos and misspellings that I am not intelligent and that my arguments are not valid.
                No, I'm stating outright (no implication at all) that because you do not bother to practice proper grammar and spelling, it is hard for those of us who do to take you seriously. You can have all the valid arguments you want, but they are unfortunately rendered less effective when presented so sloppily.

                Originally posted by Kitsune
                ...but with a language like English, that's hardly an indication of low intelligence.
                True. However, in most cases it is either an indication of poor reading habits or a detrimental lack of motivation.
                "Wounds are all I'm made of. Did I hear you say that this is victory?"
                --Michael Moorcock, Veteran of the Psychic Wars

                Comment


                • #68
                  I have strong oppinions and I'm not afraid to express them. I'd hardly call that trolling (especially with topics like I would like to "Any sane person can't vote Republican" and "Those on the right should STFU!!" ). I don't deliberatly try to tick people off. I do post between calls at work, so on longer posts I do tend to lose focus and make mistakes; I'll try to do better in the future on both issues.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    <duplicate post delete>

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Kitsune
                      I have strong opinions and I'm not afraid to express them. I'd hardly call that trolling...
                      Nothing wrong with strong opinions. It's when you state them without back-up and in such a way as to do more to antagonize than to inform. Your comment "Then you shouldn't be pimping Al Fraken" served no purpose but to slam on someone you disagree with. Bad form.

                      Originally posted by Kitsune
                      I don't deliberately try to tick people off I do post between calls at work, so on longer posts I do tend to lose focus and make mistakes; I'll try to do better in the future on both issues.
                      That's all I ask. That, and back up your arguments with traceable facts.
                      "Wounds are all I'm made of. Did I hear you say that this is victory?"
                      --Michael Moorcock, Veteran of the Psychic Wars

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Sorry. I let my issues with Franken spill over into the discussion. If it helps, I don't care much for Rush Limbaugh either. I haven't been here all that long myself. so I don't always notice when someone is new.

                        [quote="Sofonda"
                        So Kitsune....are you on the site's official welcoming comittee? Well, keep up the good work! Not.[/quote]

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Kitsune
                          If it helps, I don't care much for Rush Limbaugh either.
                          It helps a lot. It really does. :) I know you were talking to Sofonda, but I just wanted to throw that in.

                          The title of Franken's book about Limbaugh may be childish name-calling, but at least the contents quantify the title. Franken does a good job of proving his insult to be true. Besides, not as many people would by a book entitled Franken On Limbaugh: A Derisive Analysis of Modern Conservative Radio, Vol. 1.
                          "Wounds are all I'm made of. Did I hear you say that this is victory?"
                          --Michael Moorcock, Veteran of the Psychic Wars

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Bill
                            "Bill... you're really too good for such a line of argument. You put your case, and that doesn't make me claim you don't try to understand mine."

                            I'm sorry, I don't follow.
                            I probably didn't make myself very clear, so let me elaborate. To my comment that you hadn't convinced me that Bush was beyond criticism because he was backed up by the Congress, you answered:

                            Originally posted by Bill
                            This makes no sense to me; at what point do any of you think to yourself "whoa, I have this belief, but clearly the rest of the <world/country> don't share it, so mine must not be the only possible right answer?
                            So, from the context I assumed, perhaps hastily, that I might be one of the people suspected incapable of self-criticism. (Which, by the way, I think was a bit unfair, considering that I have just apoligized profusely for my calling Republican voters "insane" and "nuts".)

                            My ultimate point, though, does not pertain to an insignificant criticism of myself, but rather that you seemed to me to jump to conclusions about how much soul-searching has gone on inside people who don't come around to your point of view. I think it's wise to be extremely careful in a discussion about other topics to switch the focus from the issue to the persons who happen to disagree with you.

                            Originally posted by Bill
                            There are a LOT of people - Left AND Right - that simply cannot fathom anything other than their own point of view.
                            Too true, but I'm still at a loss when I try to understand why my post provoked that rant of yours.

                            Originally posted by Bill
                            Name me ONE PERSON on this forum (besides me) who has significantly modified their position based on either the discussion here or general information.
                            I'm sure there're many who have found a lot of interesting arguments made here and incorporated them into their thoughts, modifying views as called for; I know I have. OK, I won't pretend that my own political stance has turned around completely as result of the mere number of your posts, but I do think about your arguments and try to evaluate them as fairly as I can.

                            A statement that struck a very recognizable chord in me was made by Philip Dick in an interview book by Charles Platt some years back (I think it was called "Who writes science fiction?" or something like that), where Dick said that he was very easily swayed from one position to another. One person could say to him, "Let's go and eat Italian, that's the only kind of food worth eating," and he would think, Absolutely! Then another person would say, "Nah, let's have Chinese, it's much better," and he would think, Yes of course! Why could I ever think of eating Italian.

                            Not verbatim at all, but I think that was the gist of it. My own mind works much the same, so before I make comments here or anywhere else, I usually mull things over quite a bit and try to come down with some statements that I won't have to contradict by too easy arguments. (Not always, I certainly do make hasty and flippant comments now and then.)

                            Not that I consider my own psyche very interesting to the general public, but the point is that in discussions you have to make yourself reasonably clear and consistent, and things may sometimes come out overtly simplistic for the sake of the argument. I'm sure that goes for a lot of people besides myself. Which is a good reason to tackle the actual arguments in a discussion rather than trying to discredit the people making them. Right or left.
                            "If the environment were a bank, we would already have saved it." -Graffitti.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by PsychicWarVeteran
                              Originally posted by Bill
                              We don't read or process information with the intent of broadening our horizons, we read and process information to bolster our convictions.
                              Speak for yourself. The only thing I'm certain of is that I'm frequently wrong about things. If I knew I was right about everything, I wouldn't need these conversations/debates.
                              I'm totally with Psychic here. When I was in my teens, I think I often engaged in arguments to "win" them, whatever that might mean. Does one "win" an argument by getting the last word? Or by persuading the opponent? But a couple of decades ago, a wise woman pointed out to me that she usually engaged in arguments in order to learn rather than to teach. I thought that was a particularly sound strategy, so I've adopted it for myself. I say, let's get all the arguments out in the open, and we can all make from them what we want. Fair deal?
                              "If the environment were a bank, we would already have saved it." -Graffitti.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                "That's all I ask. That, and back up your arguments with traceable facts."

                                To Psychic and Jagged: none of what I wrote about incorporating information was intended personally, nor to "win" an argument. This is unwinnable on many levels.

                                But there is a distinct moral flavoring to these debates that is unsettling. AGAIN, talking generally, not personally. ANY information from the right is dismissed as "lies" or "drinking the elitist Kool-aid". I am no warmonger (I don't think we should be in Iraq) but why is it so hard to accept the premise that the war was entered into following the prescribed process under the Constitution? Why is it so hard to accept the fact that there is a strong possibility that what is good for the country is NOT good for you in particular??

                                I have no problem with a well-thought out argument in any direction, and I will be the first person to accept that and move forward accordingly. But this notion that "I have a personal belief, and it therefore must be right on a global scale" is nonsense, but no one is willing to admit that. For example, tax cuts would directly put money in my pocket, bvut I believe would strongly hurt this country. No offense to you Jagged, but I don't see a lot of Bush bashers making that kind of analysis. I see - and this is anecdotal, and therefore essentially useless, but - people who have a special interest, say, Federal recognition of gay marriages, wanting to further an agenda and using any means necessary. "Bush lies!", "War in Iraq feeds big corporations!!", reagrdless of, and sometimes in spite of, the veracity of those statements.

                                Hope this clarifies.

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