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Changing the rhetoric

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  • #76
    fair tax

    http://www.townhall.com/columnists/n...20040827.shtml

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    • #77
      I am not a democrat. They have their marketing strategy too. It seems to be a postmodern approach that indicates that nothing means anything and is kind of valueless. I could expand on this but don’t have time.

      Doc also read the antichrist by Nietzsche it say a lot about what kind of people he thinks were good. Also I don’t think that Nietzsche set any kind of agenda. However, people can take appealing ideas of his and use them to their own ends. The Nazis did this. He is associated with them but really never knew them because I think he died before their time.

      All business uses marketing and they use focus groups to target certain demographics. What’s crazy about that? Think of what your average sports car advertisement is saying .

      Comment


      • #78
        BTW, your article certainly does NOT describe me. I could care less about having a $10000 watch. In fact, most of the wealth envy I see and read comes from liberals, not conservatives. I like that I live in a country where I could own such a watch if I worked hard, built up my own business and sacrificed many hours of my life to have access to such income, but that's not me. I like to go in, do my job, get my paycheck, and spend as much free time with the wife and kid. See the difference is, you liberals actual disparage the guy that can buy that watch, I don't. And for some reason, you've bought into the counter-myth, that American only works for a wealthy few and no one else stands a chance. I mean, if you can get into the middle class (and the stats show that the majority of us are in it) and live a pretty comfortable lifestyle (as opposed to say herding goats in Africa or subsitance farming in Bengldesh), how can you say that no one has a chance here? C'mon, not everyone can be rich, but I'm glad some of us can be.

        BTW, you could easily retire a millionaire by saving about 5-10% of your paycheck in mutual funds and bond funds for about 30-35 years. But that sounds too much like work, doesn't it?

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by TheAdlerian
          I am not a democrat. They have their marketing strategy too. It seems to be a postmodern approach that indicates that nothing means anything and is kind of valueless. I could expand on this but don’t have time.

          Doc also read the antichrist by Nietzsche it say a lot about what kind of people he thinks were good. Also I don’t think that Nietzsche set any kind of agenda. However, people can take appealing ideas of his and use them to their own ends. The Nazis did this. He is associated with them but really never knew them because I think he died before their time.

          All business uses marketing and they use focus groups to target certain demographics. What’s crazy about that? Think of what your average sports car advertisement is saying .

          The government does the same damn thing. You never hear a new slogan that wasn't test marketed and focused group to death a million times first. hell, every decision Clinton made was based on polls and focus groups, and if you don't believe that, you might want to talk to Dick morris, who got the man re-elected with that strategy. So you now want to tell me that government is any better than the private sector and will somehow promote fairness and equality?

          Comment


          • #80
            So much for your decision not to get involved with politics here at MWM, huh DL? :lol:

            Originally posted by DL
            The problem with the tax cuts is not who received the majority of the benefit...
            We'll need to agree to disagree.

            Originally posted by DL
            Okay, I know it is hard, but try...
            Very classy.

            Originally posted by DL
            Ironically, john kerry is proposing corporate welfare to keep companies from moving overseas (tax cuts for wealthy corporations). Maybe he should start with his wife's company Heinz, which exports about 75% of its jobs.
            Dude, I have spelled this out so many times and conservatives never listen. But, I'll say it one more time:

            First off, it isn't "his wife's company". She's the heir; she doesn't have a direct say in its business dealings.

            And OF COURSE Heinz has plants in other countries. They sell their products in those countries! It makes good business sense. The companies that do not do business in, say, India but ship jobs there anyway are the ones who should be ashamed. Got it now?

            Originally posted by DL
            Corporations cannot vote, so I fail to see how these alleged corporate hand-outs that you claim Bush is making are buying any votes.
            See my reply to this same vapid remark from Kitsune. I know you can't be that blind.

            Originally posted by DL
            Anyway, Bush isn't even close to being a true conservative. I disagree with him on a number of issues, not the least of which is the idea of pre-emptive war.
            M-hm. And you're going to vote for him anyway, right?

            Originally posted by DL
            I don't know if you know, but many private schools have some form of tuition assistance and financial aid, the government voucher would just be part of the package.
            Don't patronize me. I have two kids, DL -- aged 20 and 15 -- so I think I probably have A LOT more experience in this area than you do, no?

            Originally posted by DL
            Hell, I'd support a voucher of 5-10 grand annually for underprivileged kids. how is that for a hand-out for you?
            It's not a hand out for me. And it isn't one for the underpriviliged kids, either. If you think that the vouchers would actually help poor kids get a better education, you're woefully ignorant and misguided. In reality, only the rich would benefit from the privatization of education. But I guess we need to agree to disagree on that, as well.
            "Wounds are all I'm made of. Did I hear you say that this is victory?"
            --Michael Moorcock, Veteran of the Psychic Wars

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by DL
              BTW, you could easily retire a millionaire by saving about 5-10% of your paycheck in mutual funds and bond funds for about 30-35 years. But that sounds too much like work, doesn't it?
              No, it sounds like something I can't afford since I live from paycheck to paycheck. But, thanks for assuming I'm a lazy freeloader, DL. You've really got a lot of class.
              "Wounds are all I'm made of. Did I hear you say that this is victory?"
              --Michael Moorcock, Veteran of the Psychic Wars

              Comment


              • #82
                Sorry that a couple of comments came out sarcastic, but I see you talked to Kitsune the same way, so let's just call it a wash.

                No one is assuming you are a lazy freeloader, I'm just pointing out the obvious, that anyone can save a million over the course of their life. If you aren't saving for your retirement, then you do need to take the initiative and re-arrange your finances so you can. Just think of what you could save if 7.5% of your paycheck wasn't being looted for SS!


                Anyway, the only reason I jumped in was to take issue with some of the rampant conservative bashing going on here. It is unfounded and totally off base.

                BTW, this kind of statement:

                If you think that the vouchers would actually help poor kids get a better education, you're woefully ignorant and misguided. In reality, only the rich would benefit from the privatization of education.
                never proves a point- it is an opinion statement. I've read dozens of opinions and reports pro and con on this issue and based on the failure of our public school system (a failure weighted in orthodoxy and not lack of spending), I'm inclined to give vouchers a chance.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Oh yeah, and can we quit talking about f$#$ing Naz1s? As far as I can tell, neither party has stooped to naz1sm yet, and I'm sure Berry just loves that google searches for the word "Naz1" might bring people to this site.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    And OF COURSE Heinz has plants in other countries. They sell their products in those countries! It makes good business sense. The companies that do not do business in, say, India but ship jobs there anyway are the ones who should be ashamed. Got it now?

                    More than half of the Heinz-Kerry portfolio is invested in companies that do business overseas. He's not going to keep jobs here and no one is. An Indian has just as much right to that call center or widget factory job as you or I do.

                    To play devil's advocate, why can't Heinz let Americans make the ketchup, and then export it? I'd like to see Kerry advocate that position.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Okay, so you don't say what you mean and when someone calls you on it, they are to stupid to understand your argument. That's really great debating there. Up till now I thought you were above this sort of tactic,.

                      Coporations do spend a lot on canidates, often on both sides of the isle. They aren't really buying votes however, they are buying access to the canidate, not the vote directly. Advertisment money doesn't buy votes either, it buys access to the voters. Nothing more.

                      Originally posted by PsychicWarVeteran
                      Originally posted by Kitsune
                      Last I heard, only individuals get to vote. Corporations don't get to vote as corporations, and it's illegal to force employees to vote for any given candidate.
                      Well, duh! Try thinking a little deeper; don't take everything so literally. I'm not the type to spell everything out in minute detail and I'm not going to do it for you now. You'll need to fill in the obvious gaps on your own. If you can't do that, I'm afraid I will continue to baffle you.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by DL
                        If you aren't saving for your retirement, then you do need to take the initiative and re-arrange your finances so you can.
                        And what would you have me cut out, DL? Should I sell my house so I don't have a mortgage? Should I tell my kids to depend on government grants and loans instead of putting them through college? Should I, perhaps, stop eating? Stop using electricity and water? Oh, right, I should have put away that $50 I spent taking my family to a movie over the wekend because struggling people shouldn't have any frivolities, right?

                        Maybe making the future better for myself and my children means getting rid of Mr. Record-Setting Deficit, huh?

                        Originally posted by DL
                        I've read dozens of opinions and reports pro and con on this issue and based on the failure of our public school system (a failure weighted in orthodoxy and not lack of spending), I'm inclined to give vouchers a chance.
                        Of course you have. So have I. And they point toward only the well-off being able to afford the huge difference between the voucher and the final cost. SHOW ME an article that lays it out such that someone making under 12,000 a year could afford a private school, even with a subsidy voucher. Show me.

                        Originally posted by DL
                        No one is assuming you are a lazy freeloader...
                        Then explain what you meant by "But that sounds too much like work, doesn't it?" That was a sophomoric attack.

                        Originally posted by DL
                        Sorry that a couple of comments came out sarcastic, but I see you talked to Kitsune the same way, so let's just call it a wash.
                        No, it's not a wash. My comments to Kitsune, however abrasive, were based on fact (i.e. the idea that it's hard to take banal comments seriously, especially from someone with lousy spelling and grammar). I could just as easily resort to the passive-agressive trolling he is so good at, but it serves no purpose.

                        By way of contrast, your comments have NO basis in reality. I have never given you reason to think I can't do math, nor have I ever indicated that I am unwilling to save for my retirement. You made that sh*t up, DL, and it wasn't deserved.

                        Originally posted by DL
                        He's not going to keep jobs here and no one is.
                        Would this be one of those opinion statements that never proves a point you mentioned? I think so.

                        Originally posted by DL
                        An Indian has just as much right to that call center or widget factory job as you or I do.
                        8O Uh... okay. Boy, you and I don't agree on anything. And I don't think we ever will because you simply have fundamentally different values than I have. You can have your "what's mine is mine/every man for himself" attitude. It's not for me.

                        Originally posted by DL
                        To play devil's advocate, why can't Heinz let Americans make the ketchup, and then export it?
                        That's going too far. It's just not cost-effective and possibly detremental to the company to do so. We have to at least be realistic.
                        "Wounds are all I'm made of. Did I hear you say that this is victory?"
                        --Michael Moorcock, Veteran of the Psychic Wars

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Kitsune
                          Okay, so you don't say what you mean and when someone calls you on it, they are to stupid to understand your argument. That's really great debating there. Up till now I thought you were above this sort of tactic,.
                          Fine, fine, FINE! I don't think it's complicated, but I'll explain it for those in the back of the class...

                          When Bush gives a HUGE tax break to big corporations and extremely wealthy businessmen, he is buying votes. You don't have to be Einstein to see how it works: Bush gives them tax breaks, overturns inconvenient policies, etc. and in return, they make sure he stays in office. Individually, this means they VOTE FOR HIM. Look at the donation disclosures by huge companies. Most give huge gobs of money to Bush (and other right-wing campaigns). Are you saying they aren't also voting for him?

                          I am truly sorry for giving you more credit than you deserved, Kitsune. I honestly thought you could figure this one out on your own. I stand humbly corrected.

                          If you'd like a fun and entertaining source by which you could learn how this stuff (highly corrupted political lobbying) works, read any novel by Miami Herald columnist Carl Hiaasen. I recommend Sick Puppy.
                          "Wounds are all I'm made of. Did I hear you say that this is victory?"
                          --Michael Moorcock, Veteran of the Psychic Wars

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Oh, one more thing about this comment:

                            Originally posted by DL
                            ...the failure of our public school system (a failure weighted in orthodoxy and not lack of spending)...
                            I beg to differ:

                            "Important programs for comprehensive school reform, rural education, dropout prevention, school counseling, training teachers to use technology and a program to provide resources to reduce class size were all eliminated from Bush's FY 2004 budget. Each program was part of Bush's own No Child Left Behind Act."
                            [www.ed.gov; Office of Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi, 6/9/03]

                            I'm afraid it was very much from a lack of (promised) spending, DL. Sorry.[/quote]
                            "Wounds are all I'm made of. Did I hear you say that this is victory?"
                            --Michael Moorcock, Veteran of the Psychic Wars

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              The voucher system idea maintains a anti-working class subtext. Recently, I did some psych testing for the Philly private school system. Many of the parents that send their kids there are fearful of the public school. Frankly, I can’t blame them. Anyway, the catholic schools in the area are filled with non-Catholic kids whose parents want them to be in a safe environment. Of course these parents have the money to send the kids to private schools and see that anything is better that the public ones. I think that the voucher system idea is yet another appeal to the elitist core that dwells with in many. However, I can also see the practical side of it from a safety standpoint. I doubt though that suburban and rural area school are all that dangerous. In that case I think that vouchers are simply a direct appeal to elitism.

                              The problem with the whole thing is that the government is proposing to pay for some families to get away from the poor rabble that will corrupt your kid. I went to public school and learned a lot about different kinds of people. I think its a good idea.

                              Hey this topic is supposed to be about political rhetoric! Let’s get back to that.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                I'd like to point to this article...

                                [broken link]

                                There's numbers in there...

                                Top 30 Republican (US) donors with global consumer brands
                                1 MBNA $3.0m
                                2 Philip Morris $2.9m
                                3 Microsoft Corp $2.4m
                                4 Bristol Myers Squibb $2.1m
                                5 Pfizer $1.9m
                                6 Enron $1.8m
                                7 Citigroup $1.8m
                                8 Time Warner/AOL $1.6m
                                9 Amway $1.3m
                                10 Glaxo SmithKline $1.3m
                                11 Exxon Mobil $1.2m
                                12 News Corp $1.2m
                                13 General Electric $1.1m
                                14 Limited Inc $950k
                                15 BP Amoco $950k
                                16 American Airlines $900k
                                17 Schering Plough $900k
                                18 Anheuser Busch $850k
                                19 Chevron Texaco $800k
                                20 Revlon Group $760k
                                21 American Home Products $740k
                                22 PepsiCo $720k
                                23 Walt Disney $640k
                                24 WalMart $630k
                                25 Texas Utilities $630k
                                26 Coca Cola $610k
                                27 UAL Corp $570k
                                28 Archer Daniels Midland $530k
                                29 Ford $510k
                                30 General Motors $510k

                                -- BoycottBush.net, April 2003

                                I have no reason to doubt those numbers. Even if they are not accurate, we all should know what "special interests" means right?
                                Even if I don't buy into a phenomenon of "buying votes," when companies are giving that much money to politicians, does it have an effect on policy? I'll bet my arm that it does.
                                "Buying votes," I would guess refers to the fact that it's impossible to become an elected official like governor or president unless you have a lot of money. You don't necessarily have to be rich, but you need some wealthy friends!


                                Here are some examples...

                                I don't think Bush spent a dime of his own money on the race in 2000, and problably this time around also. There's some info here...

                                [broken link]

                                Individual contributions $239,823,443 = 98%

                                PAC contributions $2,801,257 = 1% (80% of it from businesses)

                                Candidate self-financing $0 = 0%

                                Federal Funds $0 = 0%

                                Other $1,031,502 = 0%

                                ----------------------------------------------
                                Besides him in support of the building of prisons...

                                I wonder why Bush doesn't care about the expiration of the assuault weapons ban? I think he likes that it expired. That's an issue to be considered! If you like preemptive war and assault weapons, vote for Bush! Here's why he likes that assault weapons are legal again... he's a Republican...

                                [broken link]

                                "If lawmakers are guilty of tiptoeing around gun control issues, it is because the NRA and other gun rights groups wield an enormous amount of influence in Washington.. The source of that influence is money Gun rights groups have given more than $17 million in individual, PAC and soft money contributions to federal candidates and party committees since 1989. Nearly $15 million, or 85 percent of the total, has gone to Republicans. The National Rifle Association is by far the gun rights lobby's biggest donor, having contributed more than $14 million over the past 15 years. Gun control advocates, meanwhile, contribute far less money than their rivals -- a total of nearly $1.7 million since 1989, of which 94 percent went to Democrats. The leading contributor among gun control advocates is the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, formerly known as Handgun Control, which has given $1.5 million over the past 15 years."

                                I don't think politics is that complex when you consider that it's about backscratching these days. It's why some people have completely given up on the system-- believing they can't do anything to stop the corruption. Some believe their vote doesn't count.
                                So if there's literal backscratching, it usually involves a large money transaction prior to it.

                                -------------------------------------

                                Oh! Maybe this what "buying votes" means....

                                http://www.opensecrets.org/527s/index.asp

                                An OpenSecrets Investigation:
                                Advocacy Group Spending in the 2004 Elections


                                In advance of the 2004 elections, an untold number of advocacy groups will be spending millions of dollars in a way that will influence the vote on Election Day. They will be running ads on TV and radio stations in your area, sending glossy flyers and pamphlets to your mailbox, calling you at home, and more.

                                These groups represent a variety of positions on a variety of issues, but they have one thing in common: They influence how you look at the candidates. Their activities may tell you to vote for or against a specific candidate, but often they will try to shape your opinion of a political candidate or party in the context of a specific issue. Such "issue advocacy" won't explicitly tell you to elect or defeat a particular candidate, but the advocacy group's view of the candidate’s stance on their issue is clear. "

                                ------------------------
                                This just in: special interests affect politics!

                                http://schmeiser.typepad.com/the_rag...ust_in_sp.html

                                I'm sure there's a lot of gems in here...

                                http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...cs&btnG=Search
                                ---------------------
                                backscratching...

                                We know it's all about the money. That's a general rule about life right? What's your price?
                                Last edited by Rothgo; 04-09-2010, 03:52 AM.
                                \"Bush\'s army of barmy bigots is the worst thing that\'s happened to the US in some years...\"
                                Michael Moorcock - 3am Magazine Interview

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