Announcement

Collapse

Welcome to Moorcock's Miscellany

Dear reader,

Many people have given their valuable time to create a website for the pleasure of posing questions to Michael Moorcock, meeting people from around the world, and mining the site for information. Please follow one of the links above to learn more about the site.

Thank you,
Reinart der Fuchs
See more
See less

Changing the rhetoric

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #61
    Originally posted by TheAdlerian
    I love the fact that elitism appeals so strongly to the nonelite. Its almost funny.
    Yes, and these are the people you need to watch out for. The Conceptual Guerilla -- a poitical blogger I've mentioned before -- would call these folks "wannabes" and argue that they are the group that really hurts us. They want to be rich, so they vote Republican, unaware that they are voting for the very group that would keep them from "making it."

    "[The wannabe] believes with all his heart that anybody can get it - if they want it bad enough. What’s worse, he believes that’s what life is all about. It’s all about living in a house with rooms you never go in. It’s about buying expensive sports cars, that cost a house payment every month to keep running. It’s about spending ten thousand dollars for a wristwatch - so people will see it and wish they had one."

    http://www.conceptualguerilla.com/mi...rewannabes.htm

    I know a lot of people like this. They don't have the money to benefit from the exploits of Bush and Co., but they vote for Bush anyway because the hope to one day have that kind of wealth. Talk about short-sighted!

    Originally posted by TheAdlerian
    Tender people are frequently seen as being wimpy or not worth listening to.
    Too true. I mean, how many people actually heed the words of Jesus? The Buddha? Ghandi? All these men preached the Golden Rule in one form or another, yet many people (including those who claim to follow said spiritual leaders) completely ignore this in order to justify their desire to own more stuff and be more powerful.
    "Wounds are all I'm made of. Did I hear you say that this is victory?"
    --Michael Moorcock, Veteran of the Psychic Wars

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Bill
      This is called a false correlation. I would venture to say that the $300+ million that the Terminator took in at the box office was not solely from conservatives. Nor were the 18 million who watched the last episode of "The Apprentice" all conservatives.
      TheAdlerian was stating this is how conservatives appeal to the masses, not that the masses they are appealing to are all conservative. Yes, even short-sighted liberals can fall for the allure of a powerful entity. Not me, mind you, but some can.
      "Wounds are all I'm made of. Did I hear you say that this is victory?"
      --Michael Moorcock, Veteran of the Psychic Wars

      Comment


      • #63
        TV adds and whatnot are filled with symbolic humans that look the part of the elite. The usually are kind of WASPy looking. My favorite is the large-headed man with a wave of white head over his forehead. This type is always associated with fine living and smart choices. Its the older alpha male look. Its all marketing.

        Really, when you think about it its not much different than how Hollywood stars are marketed. Usually its sex appeal with them though. People dream of being with or becoming a star. How is that different than dreaming of becoming rich? Every business/organization has some kind of marketing going. Republicans are associated with rich people and helping people keep their money, so why not market to that crowd. Its naive to think that they don’t do market research and then develop plans to appeal to the greed and narcissism of their fan base.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by TheAdlerian
          People dream of being with or becoming a star. How is that different than dreaming of becoming rich?
          For my own part, I aspire to wealth only so that my life (and, ideally, the lives of others) is made easier.

          I'll restate that those you describe -- the wannabes -- are the ones we should be most concerned about.
          "Wounds are all I'm made of. Did I hear you say that this is victory?"
          --Michael Moorcock, Veteran of the Psychic Wars

          Comment


          • #65
            I agree with you about the wealth thing.

            Did you ever work with someone that got promoted and then became a total jerk? That's an example of the hidden power freak that is within many people. I believe that much of the talk is enjoyed by that kind of person

            Comment


            • #66
              THIS: TheAdlerian was stating this is how conservatives appeal to the masses, not that the masses they are appealing to are all conservative. Yes, even short-sighted liberals can fall for the allure of a powerful entity. Not me, mind you, but some can.
              IS NOT THIS:
              TV adds and whatnot are filled with symbolic humans that look the part of the elite. The usually are kind of WASPy looking. My favorite is the large-headed man with a wave of white head over his forehead. This type is always associated with fine living and smart choices. Its the older alpha male look. Its all marketing.

              Really, when you think about it its not much different than how Hollywood stars are marketed. Usually its sex appeal with them though. People dream of being with or becoming a star. How is that different than dreaming of becoming rich? Every business/organization has some kind of marketing going.


              "Republicans are associated with rich people and helping people keep their money, so why not market to that crowd. Its naive to think that they don’t do market research and then develop plans to appeal to the greed and narcissism of their fan base."

              As if the Dems don't?? Appealing to the soft white underbelly but with no follow-through?? If anything, that is a more subversive, more "marketed" approach. Where do you think John Kerry got the means to pursue the Presidency??

              I will say again, for the 40th time, if you believe this, I rest easy, because I know this oversimplifying, stereotyping will have no effect whatsoever on politics in the U.S. in the coming quarter century.

              "Did you ever work with someone that got promoted and then became a total jerk?"

              Have you ever worked for any length of time in a public corporation?? I know you have about 186 years of work experience, but I don't recall you ever mentioning working for a public corporation. Asking this is like saying "Hey, did you ever know a hot girl that wouldn't talk to the nerds in school? I did, so I know that all women are evil, shallow people who only want to date guys that look like Fabio." I know, I know, this is your "experience". Well, I'm here to tell you there is another side to the coin, sorry.

              People in America are not informed, but I don't think they are stupid, and there is a difference. Sorry to burst your rationalizing, self-defending bubble, but people aren't hoodwinked by the promise of false riches; they are selfish in the sense that they don't have the money of a Bush or Kerry and they know it. They don't want to give up what they have in the now for some plan that may or may not work to give jobs to someone four states over. It is that simple. All the psychology in the work, all the grand theories are just diddling when a lower middle class or middle class voter goes into the booth and is faced with keeping what they have and risking the future or giving a fairly large chunk of what they have now for some ephemeral "state program" that in all liklihood is not going to touch their neighborhood in any way that they can tangibly see.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Bill
                THIS: TheAdlerian was stating this is how conservatives appeal to the masses, not that the masses they are appealing to are all conservative. Yes, even short-sighted liberals can fall for the allure of a powerful entity. Not me, mind you, but some can.
                IS NOT THIS:
                TV adds and whatnot are filled with symbolic humans that look the part of the elite. The usually are kind of WASPy looking. My favorite is the large-headed man with a wave of white head over his forehead. This type is always associated with fine living and smart choices. Its the older alpha male look. Its all marketing.
                Damn, you're right. Thought I was talking about something else. Not even sure why I'm trying to moderate this Bill/Adlerian debate, since I couldn't be more bored with it. Sorry to have been a bother. I going now.
                "Wounds are all I'm made of. Did I hear you say that this is victory?"
                --Michael Moorcock, Veteran of the Psychic Wars

                Comment


                • #68
                  Believe it or not, you and me both, Psychic. I am just too stubborn or stupid to let it drop.

                  I can't believe I am willfully coming here to bang my head against the wall. I can do that at home for free.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by TheAdlerian
                    The Will to Power is one of his books that makes the conservation agenda pretty clear.

                    At the risk of jumping into a larger debate and arguing about a relatively small point...

                    The Will to Power doesn't necessarily set up a conservative agenda. It is simply a collection of Nietzsche's notebooks from several years. Collectively they focus much more on nihlism and a theory of knowledge than anything else. Some of his more conservative ideas show up pretty clearly when he talks about morality and its nature, but I think it is an unfair characterization of The Will to Power to say it sweepingly sets a conservative agenda, even if Nietzsche did it in other places.

                    For whatever my reading of Friedrich is worth :D As Dee would say, carry on.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      I'm a conservative (mostly) and I'll tell you the 3 main pieces of my agenda

                      -First and foremost, take care of my wife and son
                      -Do something with my life that makes me happy and contributes something to society
                      -Keep the government out of my life and my wallet as much as possible

                      That's pretty much true of any normal middle-class conservative. This myth that conservative policies only help the super rich is aboslute twaddle, totally unsubtantiated and unwarranted. I'm not conservative because I want to be rich, I'm conservative because I recognize that having some chance at upward mobility is better than no chance, and I can see quite clearly how conservative policies and capitalism have lead to a society where the average citizen can easily own a home and a car or two.

                      The basic gist of conservatism is this: everyone makes it on their own to the best they can. The government is not there to give handouts and buy votes, it is there to provide national defense, rule of law and some kind of working infrastructure, and a minimum social saftey net for those who really need it. God, the more I read these silly blanket statements about what conservatives are, the more I want to puke. I could just as well say "Liberal policies in the 60's like the war on poverty and the great society lead to the high rates of teen pregnancy, divorce and drug abuse in the 70's and 80's."

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by DL
                        The government is not there to give handouts and buy votes...
                        Hrm... the current administration gives all kinds of hand-outs! It's just that rather than give them to the underprivileged in this country, they give them to huge corporations... to buy votes.

                        Originally posted by DL
                        This myth that conservative policies only help the super rich is aboslute twaddle, totally unsubtantiated and unwarranted.
                        Really now? Let's see...

                        "Two thirds of his new $350 billion tax cut will go to the top 10% of income earners."
                        --http://www.counterpunch.org/freeman05302003.html

                        "Bush wanted to give parents of students in "consistently failing" schools $1,500 a year to send their children to a private school. Never mind that the money, which would come out of the federal treasury, falls far short of what it costs to send a student to the toniest private schools."
                        --http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion...04-wickham.htm

                        In other words, only rich people would benefit from said vouchers.

                        DL, if you're middle class and voting for Bush, I implore you to go read the article I linked to earlier here: http://www.conceptualguerilla.com/mi...rewannabes.htm. He's describing you, and definitely NOT with unsubtantiated blanket statements.
                        "Wounds are all I'm made of. Did I hear you say that this is victory?"
                        --Michael Moorcock, Veteran of the Psychic Wars

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Last I heard, only individuals get to vote. Corporations don't get to vote as corporations, and it's illegal to force employees to vote for any given candidate.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by PsychicWarVeteran
                            Originally posted by DL
                            The government is not there to give handouts and buy votes...
                            Hrm... the current administration gives all kinds of hand-outs! It's just that rather than give them to the underprivileged in this country, they give them to huge corporations... to buy votes.

                            Originally posted by DL
                            This myth that conservative policies only help the super rich is aboslute twaddle, totally unsubtantiated and unwarranted.
                            Really now? Let's see...

                            "Two thirds of his new $350 billion tax cut will go to the top 10% of income earners."
                            --http://www.counterpunch.org/freeman05302003.html

                            "Bush wanted to give parents of students in "consistently failing" schools $1,500 a year to send their children to a private school. Never mind that the money, which would come out of the federal treasury, falls far short of what it costs to send a student to the toniest private schools."
                            --http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion...04-wickham.htm

                            In other words, only rich people would benefit from said vouchers.

                            DL, if you're middle class and voting for Bush, I implore you to go read the article I linked to earlier here: http://www.conceptualguerilla.com/mi...rewannabes.htm. He's describing you, and definitely NOT with unsubtantiated blanket statements.
                            It is hard to even discuss some of this stuff seriously based on some of your comments.

                            Take the tax cuts for example. The problem with the tax cuts is not who received the majority of the benefit, the problem was that there was not corresponding decrease in government spending (congressional salaries and pork barrel spending would be two good places to start with the cuts). Think about this logically for a minute. Okay, I know it is hard, but try:

                            I make $10,000,000. You make $50,000. We both get pay an average tax rate of 20% (just to keep it simple). That means I pay $2,000,000 in taxes and you pay $10,000. If both of our taxes get reduced to 15%, who do you think is going to save more in taxes? I mean c'mon, that is Math 101. Of course I'm going to save more- I pay more. The highest marginal rate right now is 35%. That was lowered from 39%. how high do you think it should be? Do you have some magic number for those earning over say $200,000 a year that YOU feel is what they deserve to pay?

                            Furthermore, your inflammatory rhetoric is ignoring the fact that the tax system is more progressive now than it was under Clinton. Millions of Americans who used to pay taxes have been dropped right off the rolls and not only that, but quite a few of them actually get back more money than they paid in (a hidden kind of welfare).

                            I don't support corporate welfare (ie giving McDonald's federal money to research a new kind of chicken nugget), but I do support communities that want to give tax breaks to create business in their area (as the long term increase in tax base will more than offset the short-term decrease in revenue). Ironically, john kerry is proposing corporate welfare to keep companies from moving overseas (tax cuts for wealthy corporations). Maybe he should start with his wife's company Heinz, which exports about 75% of its jobs.

                            Corporations cannot vote, so I fail to see how these alleged corporate hand-outs that you claim Bush is making are buying any votes. Anyway, Bush isn't even close to being a true conservative. I disagree with him on a number of issues, not the least of which is the idea of pre-emptive war. Claiming Bush represents all conservatives is like claiming Kerry represents all liberals. that's not the case at all, we just throw our money at the horse we think has the best chance of winning AND represents at least a few of our causes.

                            As far as vouchers go, I've read that the average cost of sending a kid to public school is now over $10,000. We get less education for more money every year from our public schools. I don't know if you know, but many private schools have some form of tuition assistance and financial aid, the government voucher would just be part of the package. Hell, I'd support a voucher of 5-10 grand annually for underprivileged kids. how is that for a hand-out for you?

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              School choice:

                              http://www.edreform.com/_upload/Nine_Lies_dec03.pdf

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Kitsune
                                Last I heard, only individuals get to vote. Corporations don't get to vote as corporations, and it's illegal to force employees to vote for any given candidate.
                                Well, duh! Try thinking a little deeper; don't take everything so literally. I'm not the type to spell everything out in minute detail and I'm not going to do it for you now. You'll need to fill in the obvious gaps on your own. If you can't do that, I'm afraid I will continue to baffle you.
                                "Wounds are all I'm made of. Did I hear you say that this is victory?"
                                --Michael Moorcock, Veteran of the Psychic Wars

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X