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Mainstream Psychologists' Derision of Science Fiction

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  • #16
    WW, I like so many comics too :-)
    top 10

    Watchmen
    Moonshadow
    Sandman 1-76
    Miracleman vol1/2
    Tom Strong
    Planetary
    League Of Extraordinary Gentleman vol1/2
    Saga ( the whole thing )
    Jim Starlin's Warlock
    Animal Man by Grant Morrison
    "From time to time I demonstrate the inconceivable, or mock the innocent, or give truth to liars, or shred the poses of virtue.(...) Now I am silent; this is my mood." From Sundrun's Garden, Jack Vance.
    "As the Greeks have created the Olympus based upon their own image and resemblance, we have created Gotham City and Metropolis and all these galaxies so similar to the corporate world, manipulative, ruthless and well paid, that conceived them." Braulio Tavares.

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    • #17
      I was a Judge Dredd fan for many years , I bought the original 2000AD comics when they were first published and I still have the first issues , including the first appearance of Dredd in Issue 2 with the free gift of MACH1 arm stickers.....they're in mylar....I still buy the odd Dredd now and again .


      , [Ok Emerson ...oot the motor !!!!

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      • #18
        Originally posted by EverKing View Post
        What I find offensive is the idea that all fans and readers of SF are somehow broken, seeking out escape from their troubles due to some underlying pathology. The gross generalization behind such ideas are ultimately damaging and fail to consider the unique exploration of imagination possible only through SF.
        But the study does not say all fans and readers of SF are somehow broken. That's just what Gavin Miller wants you to think it says. Here's a quote from the study:

        "We are aware that several of our findings have the potential to create or perpetuate social stigma for individuals in geek culture. It is not our intention to link geek culture with dysfunction or antisocial behavior. Although the terms narcissism, fantasy proneness, schizotypy, and dissociation are often used in clinical contexts, the field has moved toward viewing these constructs as dimensional traits, moderate levels of which may be neutral or even adaptive for the individual... Narcissism in particular has been studied as an adaptive trait by social psychologists ... and moderate levels of schizotypal personality and dissociation have been shown to be related to creativity ..., which can be a form of adaptive functioning. A subfactor resembling schizotypy has been found in the basic personality trait openness to experience ... and fantasy proneness includes a nonclinical factor that encompasses daydreaming and enjoyment of fantasy ... Therefore, relationships between these traits and geek engagement should not be interpreted as evidence of psychopathology in geeks. Individuals high in geek engagement in Studies 1–7 above scored high in all of these traits, but barring some depression, reduced crystalized intelligence, and thwarted autonomy, they also showed increased levels of civic engagement and showed no deficits in belongingness, social network size, or future orientation. Thus we have painted a picture of geeks as different, but not dysfunctional.
        Note: all ellipses mark where I've removed citation references not words that would alter context and meaning.

        Miller's claim that there's still an insinuation that "fans" are mentally ill is quite the untenable reach.

        The guy also fails to mention that the "fantasy migration hypothesis" is one of three hypotheses examined in the study. The other two being the "belongingness hypothesis" and the "desire for engagement hypothesis." Probably because those ones aren't so easily used to gin up outrage.

        The guy got the point of McEwan's dig at SFF wrong and used weasel words to claim the study says something it did not say. All in service of what? Goading the fans into circling the wagons.
        Last edited by Heresiologist; 06-20-2020, 12:16 AM.

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        • #19
          Hey H

          ...but barring some depression, reduced crystalized intelligence, and thwarted autonomy, they also showed increased levels of civic engagement and showed no deficits in belongingness, social network size, or future orientation ...
          Depression- ok, but not only geeks suffer from this ill.
          reduced crystalized intelligence - Not ok ;-)
          thwarted autonomy - Not ok ;-)

          I honestly don't quite grasp what a "crystalized intelligence" means, but perhaps if it indicates that geeks generally are intelligent for certain areas but lack emotional intelligence I would certainly consider the statement valid even though I don't fully agree with it. However, "thwarted autonomy" just presupposes a lack of autonomy without being aided by external guiding agents. This is kind of condescending and offensive.

          I must say I have not read the original article, only the quote you made above, so if in it the authors explain these terms and give them non-derogratory connotations I would certainly review my opinions.



          "From time to time I demonstrate the inconceivable, or mock the innocent, or give truth to liars, or shred the poses of virtue.(...) Now I am silent; this is my mood." From Sundrun's Garden, Jack Vance.
          "As the Greeks have created the Olympus based upon their own image and resemblance, we have created Gotham City and Metropolis and all these galaxies so similar to the corporate world, manipulative, ruthless and well paid, that conceived them." Braulio Tavares.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by zlogdan View Post
            I must say I have not read the original article, only the quote you made above, so if in it the authors explain these terms and give them non-derogratory connotations I would certainly review my opinions.
            I think most of the quote shows that the terms you are objecting to are not meant to be seen as derogatory. They mention studies of narcissism (and other behaviours popularly seen in a negative light) as having adaptive value.

            It seems plain to me they are not using the terms, nor do they understand them, the way you do. The paper is not intended for a lay audience. If you want to call them condescending and offensive it behooves you to put in some effort to understand where they are coming from.

            Originally posted by zlogdan View Post
            Hey H
            Depression- ok, but not only geeks suffer from this ill.
            reduced crystalized intelligence - Not ok ;-)
            thwarted autonomy - Not ok ;-)
            I'd contend that they meant "some depression, some reduction in crystalized intelligence and some thwarted autonomy."

            They don't claim depression is unique to geeks.

            Crystallized Intelligence is knowledge accumulated through learning and experience. They are just reporting the results of a test that purports to measure intelligence that was given to a bunch of geeks. I don't see how this is "not ok."

            If I understand it correctly Thwarted Autonomy is basically whenever you feel pressure not to, or are plain unable to, do whatever you want. Anyway, the findings regarding Thwarted Autonomy were also the results of measurements.

            If you really want to grapple with the study I suggest looking up critiques of the Shipley Institute of Living Scale, the General Causality Orientations Scale and the Basic Psychological Needs Scales. I'm sure there are detractors and valid questions to be raised about each of them. But I'm also sure the paper's authors are aware of that stuff too as that is basic to doing this kind of research.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Heresiologist View Post
              I think most of the quote shows that the terms you are objecting to are not meant to be seen as derogatory. They mention studies of narcissism (and other behaviours popularly seen in a negative light) as having adaptive value.

              It seems plain to me they are not using the terms, nor do they understand them, the way you do. The paper is not intended for a lay audience. If you want to call them condescending and offensive it behooves you to put in some effort to understand where they are coming from.



              I'd contend that they meant "some depression, some reduction in crystalized intelligence and some thwarted autonomy."

              They don't claim depression is unique to geeks.

              Crystallized Intelligence is knowledge accumulated through learning and experience. They are just reporting the results of a test that purports to measure intelligence that was given to a bunch of geeks. I don't see how this is "not ok."

              If I understand it correctly Thwarted Autonomy is basically whenever you feel pressure not to, or are plain unable to, do whatever you want. Anyway, the findings regarding Thwarted Autonomy were also the results of measurements.

              If you really want to grapple with the study I suggest looking up critiques of the Shipley Institute of Living Scale, the General Causality Orientations Scale and the Basic Psychological Needs Scales. I'm sure there are detractors and valid questions to be raised about each of them. But I'm also sure the paper's authors are aware of that stuff too as that is basic to doing this kind of research.
              As I said I had not read the original article because I am part of the lay audience and I actually was not very sure of the terminology but I stand corrected especially because you said they went through actual testing. And I had remarked at the end of my post that my comment came from pure ignorance of the field and it is indeed clear now for me that they did not intentionally aim to sub-classify or diminish or indicate something negative. Thus, only in this context, if I was right, and I am not, I would be tempted to use "condescending and offensive".

              Actually, I have these experiences ( I have described earlier in this thread ) that always come to my mind at these times.

              Fernanda Montenegro, the Brazilian actress Central Station once said that she hated Blade Runner because she thought science fiction was a genre for childish grown-up men but many years later some took her to the comic con and I am not quite certain why and instead of praising or mentioning science fiction she just talked about Brazilian theater author Nelson Rodrigues.

              I also remember when I was in college and I used to visit a used books store often and I had this massive Delphi book ( which I bought because it was massive but I never read it ) which I wanted to trade for a few Ray Bradbury's books and the owner looked at me as if I was a child and said: "At least you are gonna get some fun".

              Science fiction fans are often offered these condescending looks but many forget that guys like Borges wrote speculative fiction. Even the all-time best Brazilian author Guimaraes Rosa wrote stories in a mythical land in Brazil which of course was exactly like the lands of the north of Minas Gerais but there were a lot of fantastic elements in there.
              I got it now why you said that

              But the study does not say all fans and readers of SF are somehow broken. That's just what Gavin Miller wants you to think it says
              Maybe there is a feud in the psychology academia in regard to geeks ;-)
              "From time to time I demonstrate the inconceivable, or mock the innocent, or give truth to liars, or shred the poses of virtue.(...) Now I am silent; this is my mood." From Sundrun's Garden, Jack Vance.
              "As the Greeks have created the Olympus based upon their own image and resemblance, we have created Gotham City and Metropolis and all these galaxies so similar to the corporate world, manipulative, ruthless and well paid, that conceived them." Braulio Tavares.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by zlogdan View Post
                As I said I had not read the original article because I am part of the lay audience and I actually was not very sure of the terminology but I stand corrected especially because you said they went through actual testing. And I had remarked at the end of my post that my comment came from pure ignorance of the field and it is indeed clear now for me that they did not intentionally aim to sub-classify or diminish or indicate something negative.
                Well, I think it's unlikely but I did wonder if they were using adaptive in a similarly specialized manner (i.e. not meant to correspond unequivocally to "good"). I have no prior familiarity with them, but the tests look to be fairly standard measures that have been in use for quite some time. So, I'd expect they've been applied to many groups besides "geeks".

                Moving on, it's too bad that lady never saw any value in Blade Runner, but neither did Ursula LeGuin. So, take that, Gavin Miller.

                And while I'm at it, odd move to hold up The Iron Dream as an example of how great SFF can be when the book uses parody to critique both the politics and the writing in some very popular forms of SFF. Like, the criticisms are coming from inside the house, man.

                Anyway, enough with this! I got the Swords of Heaven, Flowers of Hell comic today.
                Last edited by Heresiologist; 06-23-2020, 07:33 PM.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Heresiologist View Post
                  Moving on, it's too bad that lady never saw any value in Blade Runner, but neither did Ursula LeGuin. So, take that, Gavin Miller.
                  But she has never denied being a science fiction author and reader ;-)

                  "From time to time I demonstrate the inconceivable, or mock the innocent, or give truth to liars, or shred the poses of virtue.(...) Now I am silent; this is my mood." From Sundrun's Garden, Jack Vance.
                  "As the Greeks have created the Olympus based upon their own image and resemblance, we have created Gotham City and Metropolis and all these galaxies so similar to the corporate world, manipulative, ruthless and well paid, that conceived them." Braulio Tavares.

                  Comment

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