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HP Lovecraft and His Work

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  • Heresiologist
    replied
    Originally posted by opaloka View Post
    Yeah but I love all that stuff. It's one of my favorite things, I grew up with it. It's all complete crap, but I don't judge anyone for it. Never mind the ancient alien conspiracists, the pseudo archaeologists write the best 'speculative fantasy' there is.

    Pauwels and Bergier exist on another level, their trilogy is very pleasurable, a very dense and stimulating collection of weirdness that outshines most 'fantasy'.
    Well then, how about some of that stuff featuring Lovecraft himself?

    Lovecraft's Secret Source for the Cthulhu Mythos: http://secretsun.blogspot.ca/2014/08/lovecrafts-secret-source-for-chthulu_9.html
    "Here's a bullet-point summary of the arguments I'll be making here:
    • Alice Bailey was a well-known Theosophist who expanded on Madam Blavatsky's work
    • Beginning in 1922, Bailey began preaching a prototype of what is now known as Ancient Astronaut Theory
    • Bailey's work contains several unique innovations on Blavatsky's exegesis
    • Careful study of Lovecraft's "Call of Cthulhu shows the distinct influence of Bailey's work on the so-called Chthulu Mythos
    • This influence is shown in the names, origins, physical natures, relationship to humanity, past history and other unique details
    • Specific clues to Bailey's influence can be found in "Cthulhu" as well as "Shadow Out of Time"
    • Bailey's original appeal for Lovecraft may have been that she had written a sequel to the Book of Dzyan, a phatasmagorical Theosophical text that HPL found inspiration in"
    Total bunk, time to teach the controversy, or entertaining tangent. You decide.

    Originally posted by Pietro_Mercurios View Post
    ...
    von Daniken could have lifted the alien seeding idea straight out of the BBC Quatermass and the Pit, from 1959. There was the whole thing, full formed. Whether he'd read Lovecraft, or not, hardly matters.
    Oh my glob. Haven't seen that since the pre-teens. What was it? Hob lane? Hordes of insectoid martians jumping up and down like pogo-ing locusts. Fun stuff.

    Speaking of martians, I'll just mention that 1898 novel, Edison's Conquest of Mars, is supposed to boast the first use of the aliens built the pyramids trope.

    I'd like to say this ancient astronauts/alien visitors idea just seems like such a zeitgeist element, but it's a rather long lived one seeing as the theosophists were doing it with flame masters (or something) from Venus in 1880 or so. Seems like an easy conclusion to make soon as the idea of planets develops. In which case maybe it goes back to Giordano Bruno.
    Last edited by Heresiologist; 05-24-2015, 08:00 PM.

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  • SeeDoubleYou
    replied
    The notion of ownership of ideas is akin to the idea of owning the food you eat.

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  • Pietro_Mercurios
    replied
    Originally posted by Heresiologist View Post
    There's no citation or reference to anything I'd call strong evidence but:
    Von Daniken was once actually asked if Lovecraft had been the source of any of his ideas. He not only denied it, but seemed never to have heard of HPL.
    Source: http://crypt-of-cthulhu.com/chariotsofoldones.htm

    And here's some Lovecraftian scholar on the theosophy connection:
    http://crypt-of-cthulhu.com/lovecrafttheosophy.htm

    Blavatsky was much bigger than Lovecraft before, during, and after his life. The simple answer is that Daniken was mining many of the same sources as Lovecraft.

    As for theosophy, besides the charlatanry (as Lovecraft called it) its call for universal brotherhood among the races was probably cause for Lovecraft to despise them. Hence their inclusion among the degenerate cults in his "Call of Cthulhu" story. Easy to see it as satire carrying a cautionary "see what happens" type theme. He seemed to do much the same thing in other stories involving artists and their decadent tastes.
    von Daniken could have lifted the alien seeding idea straight out of the BBC Quatermass and the Pit, from 1959. There was the whole thing, full formed. Whether he'd read Lovecraft, or not, hardly matters.

    Leave a comment:


  • opaloka
    replied
    Yeah but I love all that stuff. It's one of my favorite things, I grew up with it. It's all complete crap, but I don't judge anyone for it. Never mind the ancient alien conspiracists, the pseudo archaeologists write the best 'speculative fantasy' there is.

    Pauwels and Bergier exist on another level, their trilogy is very pleasurable, a very dense and stimulating collection of weirdness that outshines most 'fantasy'.
    Last edited by opaloka; 05-24-2015, 06:49 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Heresiologist
    replied
    For myself, maybe others -- especially those who've spent any time taking lectures in the anthropology/archaeology department -- even if von Daniken never broke a law, his "findings" would still be total bilge; essentially, anti-information.

    Because his "methods" are at best discredited leftovers from the 19th century or earlier, or just simply based on ignorance of what he's actually observing. For instance, one of his favoured "proofs" is to note that something looks like another thing and then declare a connection. So he looks at some Mayan image, thinks to himself it resembles an astronaut in an Apollo capsule, and viola ancient astronaut.
    Last edited by Heresiologist; 05-24-2015, 06:20 PM.

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  • krakenten
    replied
    evd is a lying sack of s**t.

    His criminal record impeaches him, so if he says he never heard of Lovecraft, I'd say it was a good bet he cribbed a lot of his ideas from HPL. Remember, he wrote his third book to pass the time in prison.

    He's a montebank, but a pretty good one, as long as he keeps his line of patter going in makes sense, but when he stops, and some research gets done, that's the ball game.

    I rather think he's fun, like Penn and Teller.

    And that's about it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Heresiologist
    replied
    There's no citation or reference to anything I'd call strong evidence but:
    Von Daniken was once actually asked if Lovecraft had been the source of any of his ideas. He not only denied it, but seemed never to have heard of HPL.
    Source: http://crypt-of-cthulhu.com/chariotsofoldones.htm

    And here's some Lovecraftian scholar on the theosophy connection:
    http://crypt-of-cthulhu.com/lovecrafttheosophy.htm

    Blavatsky was much bigger than Lovecraft before, during, and after his life. The simple answer is that Daniken was mining many of the same sources as Lovecraft.

    As for theosophy, besides the charlatanry (as Lovecraft called it) its call for universal brotherhood among the races was probably cause for Lovecraft to despise them. Hence their inclusion among the degenerate cults in his "Call of Cthulhu" story. Easy to see it as satire carrying a cautionary "see what happens" type theme. He seemed to do much the same thing in other stories involving artists and their decadent tastes.

    Leave a comment:


  • krakenten
    replied
    Returning to our original thoughts:

    I looked up Erich von D on Wikipaedia, I knew he'd done jail time for fraud, didn't know it was three times.

    The Wiki also makes the Ancient Astronut-Lovecraft connection-as soon as I heard of it, the penny dropped. Lovecraft co-opted many ideas to craft his tales, much in the post-modern way.

    Let each one choose what seems best to them, I'm persuaded that there is a connection.

    Others, like Churchward, Donelly and Blavatsky had similar ideas, but HPL cast them into form and made entrertaining fiction of them.

    Last night, double event! A very amusing second look at the mermaid mockumentry, and a factual look at in the wild.

    What will be dredged up next?

    Leave a comment:


  • krakenten
    replied
    The Ancient Aliens Gang had a real bang up special on the History Channel last night.

    As I watched them jump several sharks, something came to me-this is very much like a sideshow magic act. You know it isn't real, but it can be fun for a bit to pretend along.

    One thing about the paranormal, nothing ever really dies. It gets debunked, lies doggo for a bit, then returns as newly revealed truth.

    Long ago, the Bermuda Triangle was shown to be bogus-many of the lost ships never existed, others were lost in documented storms and some 'ghost ships' were cases of vessels that slipped their moorings in rough weather and drifted out of the harbor.

    Even today, derelicts are common enough-witness the 'rat ship' wandering the North Atlantic after being abandoned-sometimes ships just won't sink.

    The 'Marine Sulphur Queen',a noted vanishment that gets trotted out to show the Triangle's hazards was not seaworthy-her bo'sun jumped ship at the first port. She was a war surplus tanker, badly converted and loaded with molten sulphur-a little sea water, BOOM! What mystery?

    Flight 19? Trainee pilots, the flight leader reporting himself not able to fly(by some accounts), recipe for disaster if indeed they encountered navigational difficulties. Big ocean, small planes, the Okefenokee Swamp on the other hand(when navigational errors occur, 180 degrees is all too common).

    No, these mysteries are just the fog of time wrapped around sad but normal events. In a generation, the lost Maylasian airliner will have gathered scads of legends. (Which are not needed, this one really is a mystery!)

    Mysteries divert-but usually, the more complex the problem, the simpler the explanation. Dammit!

    Leave a comment:


  • krakenten
    replied
    Chambers had a way with words-I remember part of his Mr. Keene output where an American Army officer, just back from service in the Phillipines(and hard service that was, during the Insurrection and the Moro Uprising. For years, when an officer who had fought on Samar entered the mess for the first time, the senior officer would call, "Stand, gentlemen, he served on Samar!") comes to Mr. Keene's office. A better portrait of a war-damaged man has not been drawn in words.

    I guess The King in Yellow was a one-off, because nobody has ever managed to do much with the idea since. Been tried, never really worked.

    Several hard-boiled detective yarns make mention of the title, and of course, there was the plot device on 'True Detective'

    "I will show you fear in a handful of dust", now there's a frightening bit of biz! Elliot made play on the occult revival post WWI, he knew what string to pluck and when to pluck it to best effect. Had those guys (the occult mafia)
    hopped on the Ancient Aliens bandwagon, who knows what might have happened?

    Machen's great skill was in invoking ideas that remain mysterious. Mao Games? Voolas? Wicked Voorish domes?(the three imposters were thinly disguised portraits of known occultists of the day, the Big Cheese is almost certainly Crowley).

    (I must correct an error of mine-I said that Ivan Sanderson published his Vile Vortices silliness in 'Argosy' magazine, actually it was 'Saga' a nearly identical publication.)

    I'm enjoying the foofaraw of Ancient Aliens-the genre is a sort of magic show, a carnival trick-entertainment for us all. Besides, how else to get a tour of these sites before some simpleton destroys them for spite? The debunking has already begun, not that it has much effect.

    Leave a comment:


  • Michael Moorcock
    replied
    As a kid I spent years, dosh and disappointment looking for more Chambers stories like The King in Yellow, much as I sought Vol 2 of Felix Krull. Don't some of those writers work in a Poe tradition while others r s seem to be in the tradition of Morris, even the Gothics.

    Leave a comment:


  • Octo Seven
    replied
    I'm a big fan of RW Chambers' weird stuff. The Repairer Of Reputations is one of my all-time fave tales in that genre although it wasn't a genre at the time of his writing it. Early Arthur Machen is the most poignant to me and the one that influences my writing aspirations the most, Algernon Blackwood is the most flawless, Clarke Ashton Smith is most imaginative, Howard is the most no-nonsense, I hesitate to include Bierce because frankly his writing is on another level to any of those guys, even if I might prefer to read some of them more. Dunsany also stood on his own highly influential feet. Lovecraft is the strange glue that connects them despite some of them being before his time. Poe is the great unwavering shadow that covers him.

    Leave a comment:


  • Michelangelo Moorcockos
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael Moorcock View Post
    ERB had a planetful of 'em!
    Wars? Trying to avoid them myself.

    You know I didn't mean more advanced wars.
    Gandhi was here

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  • krakenten
    replied
    Chambers wrote some great spookers, then quit abruptly to return to the saccarine sweet romances that made him famous.

    He was pretty good at those-his Mr. Keene(a detective who headed a huge and nearly omnipotent organization, "The Art of Detection" was inspired by it.

    That gave birth to the radio drama of the same name, it ran for ages.

    Chambers 'The Maker of Moons' is a surreal masterpiece, "The Repairer of Reputations'' is a bit of lunacy you cannot forget.

    Alas, after so very few tales, he went back to being "The Shop Girl's Scherazade" for the rest of his career.

    HPL used elements of Chambers' stories in his universe of frights, and perhaps they were best left there, nobody has ever been able to make much out of them since. They've served as vague menaces in many works. That was their original purpose-"The King in Yellow" being something which once seen alters forever. Very 19th Century, eh?
    In the wretched bog of a town where I grew up(and got stuck in for six more years, just recently) the superstitious yokels still talk about The Bad Books in hushed tones. No wonder I like HPL!

    The flaw here is that said Tomes would ruin the printers, bookbinders and booksellers along the way. They also were inclined to appear in used book shops and jumble sales, to snare the unwary.

    Too much logic ruins everything.

    And now, for the smiles involved, may I reveal that Goodyear is replacing the beloved blimps with outright Zeppelins! 'Wingfoot One' has already flown. O frabjous day! callou! callay!

    RAISE SHIP!

    Leave a comment:


  • GuyLawley
    replied
    On a tenebrously related note...
    or do I mean tenuously?...
    Gosh! in London is having a launch do for INJ Culbard's new graphic version of The King In Yellow next week (Thursday 28th May).
    Book looks good.
    http://www.goshlondon.com/2015/03/th...h-inj-culbard/
    I read Chambers' story last year in an edition which also had two Ambrose Bierce stories which gave Chambers the names of his god and his city,
    and the Lovecraft story which borrowed them later, the Whisperer in the Dark.
    Which was nice.

    Leave a comment:

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