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Jerry Cornelius in M M´s Multiverse, of DC Comics

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by Suilebhain
    Actually, though, because what I am stating is based on my own views and "not necessarily that of the author", I would feel uncomfortable putting such a theory out in a public place as fact, though I suppose in a way Mike's added comment did not refute this view.
    That's the great thing about Wikipedia. If someone disagrees, they can just change it. Also, you could just say that it's one possible interpretation of something subject to many interpretations, to give readers a feel of the sort of thing the EC saga is about.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jeremiah
    replied
    Originally posted by Governor of Rowe Island
    Thanks, Jeremiah, I may well look into it further. Most intrigued by your comments on its modern day equivalents.
    Fawlty Towers is another great example...

    Basil is Punch - bad tempered, doesn't quite understand what's going on, hates his wife.

    Manuel is Zanni - immigrant clown, doesn't speak the language very well, always getting beaten but effectively indestructible

    Polly is Columbine - the servant girl who is much smarter than her master.

    Jerermiah

    Leave a comment:


  • Suilebhain
    replied
    Interesting idea. I never thought of myself as any kind of authority before, more of a voice in the wilderness.

    Most of the people I have ever discussed this with before were people I was trying to get to read the books, you know, the people who think that the Dragonlance books are the greatest thing since the microwave oven.

    Actually, though, because what I am stating is based on my own views and "not necessarily that of the author", I would feel uncomfortable putting such a theory out in a public place as fact, though I suppose in a way Mike's added comment did not refute this view.

    What do you think, Mike? Shall I wiki this theory of the Eternal Champion and his/her being part of the Agent of Change?

    Leave a comment:


  • RitaMaria
    replied
    Originally posted by Suilebhain
    I have always seen the elements of the Champion as one being, that is, the makeup of the Agent of Change that is required to push the Multiverse into the new cycle:

    The Champion
    The Companion
    The Lover
    The Weapon
    The Adversary

    In some cases, one element is stronger or more dominant than the others.

    For example, the Lover in Elric's incarnation was weak, the Companion skilled, and the Weapon extremely powerful. However, in Jerry Cornelius' incarnation, the Weapon is very weak by comparison (needlegun), the Lover is nearly dead, and the Companion, Una Persson, is powerful (and alternates between Jerry and Una who actually is the Companion and who is the Champion at what point). Corum's weapon is not magical, but the demon artifacts that are grafted to him are, thus the Weapon is not a conventional handheld device, but something that is a part and yet not a part of the Champion.

    So, when we see Jhary a Conel show up as Corum's Companion, the spectrum of probabilities for combination is carried one place further but the fabric is intact.

    Of course, I could be totally full of crap, too.

    ((oops, didn't mean to post after MM on this - just took me that long))
    This viewpoint is very interesting. The Eternal Champion is in http://www.wikipedia.com
    How about you include this explanation above in definition of Wikipedia para EC?
    Rita.

    Leave a comment:


  • Governor of Rowe Island
    replied
    Thanks, Jeremiah, I may well look into it further. Most intrigued by your comments on its modern day equivalents.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jeremiah
    replied
    Ant[/quote]
    I'm not at all familiar with the commedia dell' arte, except from Mike's books, but what Suilebhain suggests certainly seems to strike a resonance with most of the EC stories.[/quote]

    Quick guide to the commedia, for those of you unlucky enough never to have studied under John Harris at Hull...

    The commedia dell'arte (Comedy of Skill, for non Italian speakers) was a form of drama born in pre-renaissance Italy. Rather than particular plays being written as we know them today, Commedia companies would borrow scenarios from ancient greek and roman drama, and improvise around them - the basic plot outline was written on the back of the scenery for easy reference (Scenario, literally translated, means "thing on the scenery")

    Actors would play the same character for pretty much their entire career, and would compile a book of notes of funny gags, songs, ideas which they would work into the plays however the mood and popular opinon took them. Whatever the play and situation, the actors would crop up playing the same characters, occasionally with different names (see the Marx Brothers, Abbott and Costello, the Carry On films for modern reflections of this idea).

    Famous Commedia characters include Harlequin, Columbine, Pantalone, Pierrot, Scaramouche, Zani, Punchinello (shortened to Punch in England) and more.

    Commedia companies toured throughout Europe at its height, and it is likely that Shakespeare saw them. Indeed, the Tempest, and large chunks of A Midsummer Night's Dream, bear such striking resemblences to known Commedia scenarios, that is seems inevitable that the Bard of Avon borrowed them, as they in turn had been borrowed from the greeks.

    There's shed loads more if anyone is interested. Oh, and it gets a big mention in The Vampire Lestat.

    Jeremiah

    Leave a comment:


  • RitaMaria
    replied
    Originally posted by Suilebhain
    I have always seen the elements of the Champion as one being, that is, the makeup of the Agent of Change that is required to push the Multiverse into the new cycle:

    The Champion
    The Companion
    The Lover
    The Weapon
    The Adversary

    In some cases, one element is stronger or more dominant than the others.

    For example, the Lover in Elric's incarnation was weak, the Companion skilled, and the Weapon extremely powerful. However, in Jerry Cornelius' incarnation, the Weapon is very weak by comparison (needlegun), the Lover is nearly dead, and the Companion, Una Persson, is powerful (and alternates between Jerry and Una who actually is the Companion and who is the Champion at what point). Corum's weapon is not magical, but the demon artifacts that are grafted to him are, thus the Weapon is not a conventional handheld device, but something that is a part and yet not a part of the Champion.

    So, when we see Jhary a Conel show up as Corum's Companion, the spectrum of probabilities for combination is carried one place further but the fabric is intact.

    Of course, I could be totally full of crap, too.

    ((oops, didn't mean to post after MM on this - just took me that long))
    A curious viewpoint and it seems to me valid and logical when we look back at Mikeآ´s works. The EC is a very fascinating concept specially due to its amplitude because it permits, virtually, uncountless readings about this storys.
    If you look carefully you can understand the Mikeآ´s Multiverse is a concept which can easily to contains any other fictional universe in it.
    For this reason crossovers between the EC and other characters of others fictional universes is possible, as it occurred years ago when Elric met Conan.
    Rita.

    Leave a comment:


  • RitaMaria
    replied
    Originally posted by Suilebhain
    I have always seen the elements of the Champion as one being, that is, the makeup of the Agent of Change that is required to push the Multiverse into the new cycle:

    The Champion
    The Companion
    The Lover
    The Weapon
    The Adversary

    In some cases, one element is stronger or more dominant than the others.

    For example, the Lover in Elric's incarnation was weak, the Companion skilled, and the Weapon extremely powerful. However, in Jerry Cornelius' incarnation, the Weapon is very weak by comparison (needlegun), the Lover is nearly dead, and the Companion, Una Persson, is powerful (and alternates between Jerry and Una who actually is the Companion and who is the Champion at what point). Corum's weapon is not magical, but the demon artifacts that are grafted to him are, thus the Weapon is not a conventional handheld device, but something that is a part and yet not a part of the Champion.

    So, when we see Jhary a Conel show up as Corum's Companion, the spectrum of probabilities for combination is carried one place further but the fabric is intact.

    Of course, I could be totally full of crap, too.

    ((oops, didn't mean to post after MM on this - just took me that long))
    A curious viewpoint and it seems to me valid and logical when we look back at Mikeآ´s works. The EC is a very fascinating concept specially due to its amplitude because it permits, virtually, uncountless readings about these stories.
    If you look carefully you can understand the Mikeآ´s Multiverse is a concept which can easily to contains any other fictional universe in it.
    For this reason crossovers between the EC and other characters of others fictional universes is possible, as it occurred years ago when Elric met Conan.
    Rita.

    Leave a comment:


  • RitaMaria
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael Moorcock
    He's Jerry Cornelius but he's also my real-life friend Jerry Goldstein...
    Jerry appears in The Cardinal and the Corpse, the movie by Sinclair and Petit which also features Alan Moore and me... Yes, you probably would go mad if you tried to make every connection I've made over the years.
    It could be that I'm already totally barmy or that I've managed to keep sane by offloading this stuff into books and pictures... :D
    Hum... Unhappily, I do not know "The Cardinal and the Corpse", Mike. But it seems to me very interesting: Jerry Cornelius, you and Alan Moore. Please, is this film availiable in internacional market?
    Are you Mooreآ´s friend, arenآ´t you? I wonder how it would be a story of the EC written by you and Moore....
    Ah, I have read Jerry Cornelius is one of influences to Watchmen.
    Rita.

    Leave a comment:


  • RitaMaria
    replied
    Originally posted by Lord Doom
    It's like looking at the multiverse itself: it may drive you insane if you think about it too much ;)
    Jeff
    :D Yes! And this is one of the most interesting point in MIkeآ´s works. All this complexity - what permits a plenty of readings and rereadings - makes the Multiverse very attractive to us, readers. I can imagine 100 years in future, others readers will be still discuss features of EC. And, like us, they will be enjoy themself with Mikeآ´s books.
    Rita.

    P.S. Due to connections problems I was absent. I am using a cybercafe connection. I hope to resolve this problem soon.

    Leave a comment:


  • Pietro_Mercurios
    replied
    Originally posted by Ant
    Originally posted by Suilebhain
    I have always seen the elements of the Champion as one being, that is, the makeup of the Agent of Change that is required to push the Multiverse into the new cycle:

    The Champion
    The Companion
    The Lover
    The Weapon
    The Adversary

    In some cases, one element is stronger or more dominant than the others.

    ...
    This seems very reminiscent of the cast in commedia dell' arte... ? Which I think Mike made explicit in The Condition of Muzak.

    Ciao,
    Ant
    Some photos I took, today:

    I must admit, it was Jerry Cornelius that sprung to mind. :)

    Leave a comment:


  • Governor of Rowe Island
    replied
    Originally posted by Ant
    Originally posted by Suilebhain
    I have always seen the elements of the Champion as one being, that is, the makeup of the Agent of Change that is required to push the Multiverse into the new cycle:

    The Champion
    The Companion
    The Lover
    The Weapon
    The Adversary

    In some cases, one element is stronger or more dominant than the others.

    ...
    This seems very reminiscent of the cast in commedia dell' arte... ? Which I think Mike made explicit in The Condition of Muzak.

    Ciao,
    Ant
    I'm not at all familiar with the commedia dell' arte, except from Mike's books, but what Suilebhain suggests certainly seems to strike a resonance with most of the EC stories.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ant
    replied
    Originally posted by Suilebhain
    I have always seen the elements of the Champion as one being, that is, the makeup of the Agent of Change that is required to push the Multiverse into the new cycle:

    The Champion
    The Companion
    The Lover
    The Weapon
    The Adversary

    In some cases, one element is stronger or more dominant than the others.

    ...
    This seems very reminiscent of the cast in commedia dell' arte... ? Which I think Mike made explicit in The Condition of Muzak.

    Ciao,
    Ant

    Leave a comment:


  • Lord Doom
    replied
    Nice theorizing! It was late at night when I wrote, so my head was fuzzy from exhaustion, but the thought came through.

    I always thought it would be a cool idea if Mike worte a story where the companions all met, or at least three or four, and had to combine their essence to battle some entity or another, as did the champion several times. Oh well. (disclaimer: I do not own this idea, nor will I seek monetary compensation if ever said scenerio is ever utilized by said author Michael Moorcock. *sigh* ah, legalities. JS)

    I never figured "the lover" into the equation, but it makes some sense, since these were all "romances" and love was usually integral to the theme even though the lovers usually died or turned out to be traitors ;)

    Yes, insanity. Like trying to figure out the Von Bek family tree, or even which Rose is related to whom, and who the kids are and... ah, madness indeed.

    But it's fun. That's why I love the EC multiverse. So rich in detail, that each and every new read offers up new information and a new experience. That's why it's literature and not just empty prose.

    I'm going to miss the fantasties.

    Best,

    Jeff

    Leave a comment:


  • Suilebhain
    replied
    Heh heh...Corum Jhaelen Irsai (if I spelled it correctly). The first time I figured it out I was so proud of myself.

    It would seem in the Cornelius stuff (I feel odd discussing theory of a work with the author himself, but I guess it is no odder than Elric attending a party at Jerry's house) that there is often the Champion to the Champion. I would say that most of the time Una appears Jerry is sorta like, ah, rats, now I have to sit it out.

    I do have another question, Mike. The little black and white cat...did you have a writing buddy during that period who was a little black and white cat?

    Leave a comment:

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