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Ship Names of the Granbretan Fleet?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Rothgo View Post
    Hawkmoon would rather be a home doing domestic this that and the other, not saving the world. His actions are thus entirely enforced on him
    This happens to most of them, though doesn't it? Just get set up in a nice castle with the Missus, and then somebody or something pops up and tries to get their attention. Should they ignore it, something bad happens to Her Indoors.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by David Mosley View Post
      I think the problem with Dorian - and admittedly I say this in hindsight because it wasn't apparent to me when I first read the Tetralogy in my early teens - is that he's a vastly less interesting protagonist than his supporting cast. In some ways - and it might be a bit of a cliché to say this - it's the world of Hawkmoon that's more impressive than almost anything else. Perhaps what the books lack in their central character they more than make up for with the sheer undiluted fecundity of the post-Tragic Millennium environment in which they're set. Without wishing to appear too sycophantic, I believe a lesser writer than Mike could have built an entire career plundering the rich seams of barely-hinted-at backstory which The History of the Runestaff is pregnant with. Perhaps it's unavoidable that in as EPIC a tale as THotR unquestionably is, the protagonist is rather bland in comparison to his companions and foes, whether they be Count Brass, Baron Meliadus, D'Averc, Bowgentle, The Knight in Jet and Gold, Oladahn, King Huon, Countess Flana, etc.
      There is a great deal in this statement that I agree with, and some of it I wasn't even aware of until I read it! Perhaps a great deal of his value as a character is to provide a stable anchor around which the many powers and forces of his world can swirl...
      “The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.” - Albert Einstein

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      • #33
        Personally, I read the Hawkmoon series at about 14 years of age, and of all Mike's works it's probably the one most suitable for a juvenile audience because of its fast-paced plot, simple dialogue and easily comprehended moral stance. Mike once described it to me (at this forum or an earlier one, I forget which) as "designed for a fast read" which about sums it up.

        The thing is about a hero like Dorian is that he's that specific kind of tragic anti-hero to whom horrible things happen, and has to deal with them, rather than being a go-getter, and as such tends to be overshadowed by his less victimised co-stars like Count Brass and (in a different way) Bowgentle.



        Rather than weaken the story, though, I can't help feeling it gives it a kind of strength. Remember, at that time typical fantasy heroes were like Conan or Aragorn, tough cases who were hard to identify with simply *because* they had no weaknesses. Hawkmoon thus becomes a lot more accessible to the ordinary human reader, who has probably suffered defeats in his/her life, and had to deal with problems beyond their control and had to call on every ounce of their self-belief
        to surmount them. I have to admit I liked it a lot, and on re-reading it a few years ago (in my late forties) found it hadn't lost much of its appeal.

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        • #34
          @ Mr. Effay:

          Interesting info, thanks!

          @ Mr. Mosley:

          Thanks for giving the newb the info on the fancy
          doo-hickey! And I agree with you on your comments about Hawkmoon in relation to his co-stars entirely.

          @ sylvae 23:

          Have to say I take exception to you grouping Aragorn in with Conan. Conan is not nearly as simple in Robert E. Howard's texts as he is portrayed to be in pretty much every other form of media he's been presented in. You probably know this, and yeah Conan's flaws as a human being are never really central to the story...I guess the REH/JRRT comparison just rubs me the wrong way and had to say so. But at any rate, I agree with you that the Hawkmoon books don't necessarily suffer for the observations we're making about his personality, he's just a different kind of character with his own set of pros and cons.
          "When the Eleatics denied motion, Diogenes, as everyone knows, came forward as an opponent. He literally did come forward, because he did not say a word but merely paced back and forth a few times, thereby assuming that he had sufficiently refuted them."
          - Sّren Kierkegaard

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          • #35
            Originally posted by KarmanalOfZert View Post
            @ Mr. Effay:




            @ sylvae 23:

            Have to say I take exception to you grouping Aragorn in with Conan. Conan is not nearly as simple in Robert E. Howard's texts as he is portrayed to be in pretty much every other form of media he's been presented in. You probably know this, and yeah Conan's flaws as a human being are never really central to the story...I guess the REH/JRRT comparison just rubs me the wrong way and had to say so. But at any rate, I agree with you that the Hawkmoon books don't necessarily suffer for the observations we're making about his personality, he's just a different kind of character with his own set of pros and cons.
            I should point out that I like the Conan books (though not the comic, media etc ripoffs) immensely, and I didn't mean to imply that Conan is an uninteresting character. My point was that he's interesting in the same way as Elric, Corum or Aragorn (to a point) is, as a genuine old-style hero who happily beheads a dozen monsters before breakfast. The kind of man others would like to be, and (in most cases) can't! This isn't to say such a hero can't have inner conflicts - would anyone really say Elric is nothing but a slash artist? - simply that the average reader finds themself admiring rather than identifying with them.

            Hawkmoon, on the other hand, is robably Mike's best anti-hero, in that even though he's far from a wimp, he has a huge set of limitations. Some of them are inflicted externally - such as the jewel, and the fact that the entire resources of Granbretan are after his hide - others internally, such as the shame of his defeat by the Empire (which he sees as failure). For example, I love George MacDonald Fraser's "Flashman" series, and while I wouldn't put Dorien in the same class of man as Flashy (The latter's a self-confessed coward, cheat and bully and proud of it) there's no doubt that it's easier for the average reader to see himself as Hawkmoon or Flashy than as the all-conquering Conan, Elric or Aragorn. Similarly, I prefer the Grey Mouser (with his love of hot baths and comfort, his ridiculous attempts to build a luxury house for his princess out of a slum, etc) to Fafhrd, to whom heroic deeds come easily.

            I realise that mentioning Tolkien here might cause many hands to flash to the hilts of their swords, but similarly, for those that do see virtue in LOTR, Samwise Gamgee and Pippin Took are far more accesible to the reader than Gandalf, Frodo or Elrond (incidentally, I'd put Tolkien in my top five of fantasy writers, but well behind Moorcock, Leiber and Peake.)

            I'd add too that I meant no offence to Conan fans by my remarks, and I hope I made that clear.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by sylvae23 View Post
              ... Remember, at that time typical fantasy heroes were like Conan or Aragorn, tough cases who were hard to identify with simply *because* they had no weaknesses. ....
              I never had any trouble identifying with Conan

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              • #37
                Ah, that explains a few things then...



                Explanation for those who aren't familiar with American late-night TV chat shows.
                Last edited by David Mosley; 02-23-2010, 03:32 AM.
                _"For an eternity Allard was alone in an icy limbo where all the colours were bright and sharp and comfortless.
                _For another eternity Allard swam through seas without end, all green and cool and deep, where distorted creatures drifted, sometimes attacking him.
                _And then, at last, he had reached the real world – the world he had created, where he was God and could create or destroy whatever he wished.
                _He was supremely powerful. He told planets to destroy themselves, and they did. He created suns. Beautiful women flocked to be his. Of all men, he was the mightiest. Of all gods, he was the greatest."

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by sylvae23 View Post
                  I realise that mentioning Tolkien here might cause many hands to flash to the hilts of their swords
                  Point well taken; this line had me laughing my ass off.
                  "When the Eleatics denied motion, Diogenes, as everyone knows, came forward as an opponent. He literally did come forward, because he did not say a word but merely paced back and forth a few times, thereby assuming that he had sufficiently refuted them."
                  - Sّren Kierkegaard

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                  • #39
                    Nearly
                    Attached Files

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                    • #40
                      Hawkmoon was my EC introduction to the multiverse and graduated onto Elric, Corum et al. I agree with many others, Count Brass is probably the most fascinating character inthe series, I would have liked to hear more of his early years, like the Battle of Nine Left Standing, etc however I wouldn't like the series spoiled. Brian Blessed also sounds like a good Count Brass!


                      , [Ok Emerson ...oot the motor !!!!

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Nathaniel View Post
                        Nearly
                        I love a joke I don`t see coming towards me.

                        My wife finally decided to read MM last year, and read the Hawkmoon books, but she had a bit of trouble wondering why I thought MM was such a superior writer. Now that she is reading Corum, she gets it. She and I agree that Corum is at least far more sophisticated than Hawkmoon.

                        A shame that there are more Hawkmoon RPG books out than Corum books, but as David says, that might be because the world of Hawkmoon is so fun.
                        "Self-discipline and self-knowledge are the key. An individual becomes a unique universe, able to move at will through all the scales of the multiverse - potentially able to control the immediate reality of every scale, every encountered environment."
                        --Contessa Rose von Bek, Blood part 4, chapter 12

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                        • #42
                          I found Conan, an odd character, in a way, just a cypher - maybe like the 'Man with No Name' from Leone's westerns. Whereas Dorian at the start of the Runestaff is a broken man and has greatness thrust upon him and rises to the challenge. Also Conan is a collection of stories against Hawkmoon's integrated cycle. Again we see a weary hero at the start of The Chronicles of Count Brass.

                          I think that the Hawkmoon RPG is easier to grasp for a player, you had a good background and great setting. Some thing that most RPG systems lack as a starting point or at least in the early days - apart from Runequest.

                          Fraser's Flashman is one of the greats as his survival through the years of Imperial adventuring and coming up 'smelling of roses' with an enhanced reputation.
                          Papa was a Rolling Stone......

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                          • #43
                            I recently had this thought concerning Hawkmoon: Perhaps part of his appeal is that, by being so "average", he allows for many of us to identify with him (which is essentially the same thing that sylvae23 said).
                            “The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.” - Albert Einstein

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