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Revenge of the Rose

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  • Revenge of the Rose

    This still stands as my personal favorite from the EC series. The cast, the settings, the overall plot, the wry humor, the poetic flourishes, Arioch in finer form than ever, the exchanges between Wheldrake and Gaynor, Gaynor at his most debased, the navigating, love sick toad... I could go on & on!

    Comments &thoughts welcome from anyone else who loved this one especially... or interesting points from those who didn't... or if MM is inclined, insights on what were the inspirations, mind sets and/or physical environments that led up to the writing of this one.

  • #2
    Revenge will always have a special place in my heart because I was present when MM did a dramatic reading from it at, I believe, the San Antonio Worldcon back in, uh.....1998? This one forgets.

    And I do mean "dramatic." As I recall, Mike's rendition of the voice of the "navigating, love sick toad" was nothing short of inspired.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Eldren Rogue
      This still stands as my personal favorite from the EC series. The cast, the settings, the overall plot, the wry humor, the poetic flourishes, Arioch in finer form than ever, the exchanges between Wheldrake and Gaynor, Gaynor at his most debased, the navigating, love sick toad... I could go on & on!

      Comments &thoughts welcome from anyone else who loved this one especially... or interesting points from those who didn't... or if MM is inclined, insights on what were the inspirations, mind sets and/or physical environments that led up to the writing of this one.
      I'd have to agree that Revenge of the Rose is probably my favorite. Once I finish up the Elric books, I intend to go back to this one (and Fortress of the Pearl) and re-read. I don't recall many details from the books. Actually, I've never been good at remembering details from books. For me, it (reading) is all about being "absorbed" into another world. I usually come out of it like I would a dream.

      Tony

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      • #4
        Originally posted by tvissoc
        I'd have to agree that Revenge of the Rose is probably my favorite. Once I finish up the Elric books, I intend to go back to this one (and Fortress of the Pearl) and re-read. I don't recall many details from the books. Actually, I've never been good at remembering details from books. For me, it (reading) is all about being "absorbed" into another world. I usually come out of it like I would a dream.

        Tony
        Tony: Glad to hear there is someone else like me out there - I always figured I was alone. I've read Revenge of the Rose twice, yet I probably couldn't tell you very many details of it at all. Like you, the details of some books fade away like a dream. They'll come back to me immediately when I pick the book up again, but off the cuff they just ain't there. Weird, huh?

        What I do remember is that I loved Fortress of the Pearl when I first read it, and when I first read Revenge I wasn't crazy about it. But upon rereading some years later, my opinions on those two books basically reversed. Revenge is clearly superior. But don't ask me for many details!

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        • #5
          At the time I didn't think I'd done a good enough job of Fortress and was determined to make sure that Revenge was better, so it's probably more ambitious than Fortress. I'm not much in the habit of rereading my own books. I'd based the main city in Fortress on Venice, as I recall, and I probably feel more tolerant towards it now than I did after finishing it.
          Revenge was certainly my most ambitious after Stormbringer, as Dreamthief's Daughter was the most ambitious after Revenge. I try to set the bar higher and higher since I believe an author should strive to do something more ambitious every time, otherwise there's no point in doing sequels. I hate series which just tail off into repetition of themselves.
          I think my own affection, as far as all the later books is concerned, is for Revenge, since I love Wheldrake (who is, of course, a version of Swinburne) and liked the family Phatt and the notion of the Gypsy Nation.
          I think Fortress might have been a good conventional fantasy novel, but Revenge marks a slightly more ambitious move to increasingly less conventional fantasy novels which reached culmination in books like War Amongst the Angels and The Skrayling Tree.

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          Pre-order or Buy my latest titles in the USA:
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          • #6
            I've always loved Fortress as it felt almost like a travelogue of human nature, but Revenge would have to come a very close second.

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            • #8
              Hi, here is more than one spoiler on the subject and on what Hawksun mentioned:



              Thanks,


              -Lemec

              "With a deep, not-unhappy sigh, Elric prepared to do battle with an army." (Red Pearls)
              - Michael Moorcock

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              • #9
                The movie mentioned in Hawk's and Lem's spoilers is presently available on the Starz on Demand cable channel .
                "A man is no man who cannot have a fried mackerel when he has set his mind on it; and more especially when he has money in his pocket to pay for it." - E.A. Poe's NICHOLAS DUNKS; OR, FRIED MACKEREL FOR DINNER

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                • #10
                  Originally posted by Michael Moorcock
                  I think Fortress might have been a good conventional fantasy novel, but Revenge marks a slightly more ambitious move to increasingly less conventional fantasy novels which reached culmination in books like War Amongst the Angels and The Skrayling Tree.
                  I'd certainly agree RotR seems like a pivot point from your earlier style with the EC series and the way you're writing now.

                  I have to confess my ingnorance of the fellow you based Wheldrake on, will have to go Google & find out. I think Wheldrake is great too, some of his lines & reactions are just perfect. Esp, when Gaynor tells Elric he will be wiped from the Multiverse, less enduring than one of Wheldrake's verses, & the poet stops dead from his conversation with Charion Phatt & interjects with completely English outrage, calling on Gaynor's sense of manners as a gentleman, albeit a villainly one. There are a lot of little exchanges like that that are just perfect thoughout the book.

                  One question: Elric & Gaynor are having a philosophical debate, & Elric kinda puts Gaynor in his place. At that point, three sailors come in playing a mournful shanty on a tambourine, pipe & a musical sword. Gaynor dismisses them to 'the relief of all.' This humorous moment seems a nod or reference to something... what exactly?? :)

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                  • #11
                    Originally posted by Pellaz
                    And I do mean "dramatic." As I recall, Mike's rendition of the voice of the "navigating, love sick toad" was nothing short of inspired.
                    Teehee... would have loved to hear the part where Toad turns to Wheldrake (re Charion Phatt) and says: "Thou shalt not have mine egg..."

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                    • #12
                      Originally posted by Eldren Rogue
                      Teehee... would have loved to hear the part where Toad turns to Wheldrake (re Charion Phatt) and says: "Thou shalt not have mine egg..."
                      Wow, talk about a frisson of memory.... When I read your post, MM's tortured-sounding rendition of that line came back to me, clear as a bell, from that hot summer day in 1997.


                      BTW, I concur with AriochRIP about Fortress and Revenge. I loved the former when it came out, but after Revenge appeared, I remember thinking "Whew, that was great...even better than Fortress!"

                      This was especially depressing since MM had dedicated the US edition of Fortress to me and three friends. <--- that's a fallen crown, slightly askew

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                      • #13
                        Well, when I dedicate the books, I don't know another one's going to be better, do I ? I'm doing my best at the time, pard, and I wanted to acknowledge your kindness.
                        Eldren Rogue -- sounds as if those three sailors should represent something, but for the life of me I can't remember. I wrote most of that book outside in the garden of our cottage and don't REMEMBER any passing musicians...

                        Pre-order or Buy my latest titles in Europe:
                        The Whispering Swarm: Book One of the Sanctuary of the White Friars - The Laughter of Carthage - Byzantium Endures - London Peculiar and Other Nonfiction
                        Doctor Who: The Coming of the Terraphiles - Kizuna: Fiction for Japan - Modem Times 2.0 - The Sunday Books - The Sundered Worlds


                        Pre-order or Buy my latest titles in the USA:
                        The Laughter of Carthage - Byzantium Endures - London Peculiar and Other Nonfiction - The Sunday Books - Doctor Who: The Coming of the Terraphiles
                        Kizuna: Fiction for Japan - The Sundered Worlds - The Winds of Limbo - Modem Times 2.0 - Elric: Swords and Roses

                        Comment


                        • #14
                          Wheldrakeans, Unite! You have nought to lose but your ... ummm ...

                          Originally posted by Michael Moorcock View Post
                          A(snip)
                          I think my own affection, as far as all the later books is concerned, is for Revenge, since I love Wheldrake (who is, of course, a version of Swinburne) and liked the family Phatt and the notion of the Gypsy Nation. (snip)
                          .
                          Wheldrake is the all-round star character of the Elric series, I'd say. Elric's the glum anti-hero, and he does that well, and he does it beautifully in "Elric at the End of Time" - one of your best Elric stories IMHO Mike.

                          But Wheldrake! He and Esbern Snare! It would not surprise me if people actually went out of their way to try to track down the Esbern Snare story in Denmark - because I certainly went out of my way to track down one poetaster Wheldrake. (I ended up laughing at myself while kicking myself in the back for taking Michael Moorcock's presentation of the character of one of Swinburne's fabrications, for a real person! Very, very well done!
                          sigpic Myself as Mephistopheles (Karen Koed's painting of me, 9 Nov 2008, U of Canterbury, CHCH, NZ)

                          Gold is the power of a man with a man
                          And incense the power of man with God
                          But myrrh is the bitter taste of death
                          And the sour-sweet smell of the upturned sod,

                          Nativity,
                          by Peter Cape

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