Chaostar

[Anarchist]

I hope this hasnt been discussed before. Before reading any books of the Elric series I had in mind that Arioch was the Chaostar symbolised by what is refered to in the books as the symbol of chaos. But of course in the book Arioch is just one of the Gods of chaos. Is it just an influence of mr Moorcock changed a bit for the cause of the book or am I wrong somewhere?

[Shadowheart]

It was probably Domine's song Arioch the Chaos Star which has thrown you off. They have him claim that title in the song, but he never does that in any book that I remember reading. His most important titles are Lord of the Seven Darks and Knight of the Swords (and Lord of Canaria, I suppose).

[Anarchist]

No, it has nothing to do with Domine :) They follow Moorcocks books when it comes to Elric mythology. Some search in wikipedia appeared this result:

Arioch originally appears in the Book of Genesis chap. 14 as the "King of Ellasar", part of the confederation of kings who did battle with the kings of Sodom and Gomorrah and with Abraham in the vale of Siddim. Earlier in the 20th century, it was common to identify him with "Eriaku" - an alternative reading of either Rim-Sin or his brother Warad-Sin, who were Elamite rulers over Larsa contemporary with Hammurabi, although this identification has come under attack from scholars in more recent years.

The same name later appears in the Book of Daniel as the person appointed by King Nebuchadnezzar to put all the wise men of Babylon to death.

Arioch (Arius) was also a grandson of Semiramis in the classical Ninus legend.

Adapted by later writers

Arioch was a name for a fictional demon, named in John Milton's Paradise Lost as one of the fallen angels under Satan's command.

Arioch appears in Michael Moorcock's fantasy stories about Elric, Hawkmoon and Corum as the patron chaos lord of Elric and his ancestors. He is also known as the "Knight of Swords" and is one of the 3 major deities of Chaos in Moorcook's books about Corum. The other two deities are the Queen of Swords (Xiombarg) and the King of Swords (Mabelode). All three deities used mortal pawns like Elric and Corum in their struggle to defeat the Lords of Law. These books have also spawned various pen & paper Role-playing games such as Chaosium's Stormbringer.

[Michael Moorcock]

I took the name from Milton, pure and simple. Arioch also figures in various books about demonology that I read as a teenager and haven't read since. His character and ambitions remain fundamentally the same from book to book (including in the current Elric graphic novel). I actually don't know anything about the song you're talking about here! Could you illuminate me ?

[Anarchist]

Shadowheart is referring to the Italian epic metal band Domine (a band greatly influenced by your books) and to their song Chaostar from their latest album Emperor of the Black runes.
Since mr Moorcock you had the kindnes to answer my question (partially :)) how about my subquestion? Was the symbol of chaos your creation? If it was your influence goes further than you think :)

[Michael Moorcock]

Yes, the Chaos symbol was my creation. Didn't seem anything big at the time. I had a single arrow for Law and a multitude (well, eight|) for Chaos (representing Entropy). I also played with the notion of it representing the Union flag in the UK! Some Lords of Chaos I took from sources like Milton, others I made up. Same with Corum, which riffs off standard Celtic mythology more than my other books, where the mythology is mainly new-minted, as it were. I'd heard of the band but don't think I know the record. I sometimes also get confused, since metal bands are inclined to favour Elric and the Black Sword. Both Hawkwind and Blue Oyster Cult have included Elric songs in their repertoires for many years since the 1970s.

[voilodian ghagnasdiak]

The Chaos emblem also has a stalk and seven leaves, which throws another meaning into the mix.

[Michael Moorcock]

Whose Chaos emblem ?

[Anarchist]

If you see what variations of the chaos sumbol I have seen you will be amazed.
Well grandpa Moorcock (my young age allows me to call you like this :)) Elric's concept is perfect for heavy metal music since it contains a lot of darknes and violence and an antihero with a sword that give a lot of food for songs. Fantasy was always a source for songs in heavy metal music and concepts that vary a bit from the cliche "The noble strong warrior saves the world and marries his beloved..." fit perfect to the revolutionary (as we metal fans think it is and want it to be) spirit of this music.

[voilodian ghagnasdiak]

Mike Wrote

Whose Chaos emblem ?

It was probably just a dillusional collective assumption that we conspired in the seventies.Sorry if I hit a nerve.As you advised me in a prior conversation, it is as I see it .

[Shadowheart]

No, it has nothing to do with Domine :) They follow Moorcocks books when it comes to Elric mythology.

True, but that doesn't mean they can't have made up a title for Arioch. Artistic license and all. Arioch had a lot of names, and the ones that were mentioned in the book wouldn't have worked as well in the chorus.
At any rate I might just be wrong, maybe Arioch is called the Chaos Star in one of the stories.

I rather like Domine actually, they've got this delightful cheesiness that goes very well with Elric in particular. I notice their site is being rebuild, though it has a cute picture of Elric and the message that they're recording a new album. Meanwhile lyrics to their songs can be found here.

[Anarchist]

I rather like Domine actually, they've got this delightful cheesiness that goes very well with Elric in particular.

Italians have this in their music :)

Maybe the symbol of Chaos is something of small significance to you mr Moorcock but to me it is a very strong symbol with deep meaning, maybe because of the books and some uses I have noticed.

[David Mosley]

At any rate I might just be wrong, maybe Arioch is called the Chaos Star in one of the stories.

I don't recall it being used in any of the original Elric novellas from '62-64. Don't know about the later novels, but it doesn't ring a bell in any case.

If you want to guess at the entomology, I'd say it was a variation on Lucifer Morningstar, with Chaos substituted for the defining article (or something).

[Oren]

The Chaos star is a spoked device with eight equidistant arrows radiating from a central point. It was originally devised by the fantasy novelist Michael Moorcock as a symbol of chaos (infinite possibility). The Chaos wheel has been adopted as a symbol of Chaos magick. The current rounded shape was devised by author and chaos magician Peter Carroll.

Mike, you should charge a fee for every spell cast using the Chaos star! Or at least for every successful one (but then don't count on it for paying the rents!).

At times I feel total disrespect to people dealing with the occult, but then I remember that some people who I admire also strongly believed in the supernatural. I wonder whether Conan Doyle would try using the Chaos star to summon some mischievous faeries...

[Michael Moorcock]

Well, it had meaning for me, but my point is that it didn't take me very long to work it out. I really wanted a symbol for Entropy/Chaos and it seemed to make the most sense. In an earlier discussion (last year ?) I said how much I like Walter Simonson's assymetrical Chaos sign.
I don't know much about magic, really. I remember a blacksmith phoning me in Yorkshire one time and saying he'd made the sword now could I tell him how to get the soul into it... These are STORIES, I said, not templates on how to live. Why does The Life of Brian seem increasingly relevant the older I get ?