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White Wolf's Son *SPOILERS* Discussion Thread

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  • Michael Moorcock
    Site Host
    • Dec 2003
    • 14278

    #46
    To be fair it's the printer who should know how to cut the cover paper according to the right grain. And every so often they mess up. As I say, Multiverse has the same problem and DC have been doing this for years, too. Not their fault. They should bollock the printer, though. I would.

    Pre-order or Buy my latest titles in Europe:
    The Whispering Swarm: Book One of the Sanctuary of the White Friars - The Laughter of Carthage - Byzantium Endures - London Peculiar and Other Nonfiction
    Doctor Who: The Coming of the Terraphiles - Kizuna: Fiction for Japan - Modem Times 2.0 - The Sunday Books - The Sundered Worlds


    Pre-order or Buy my latest titles in the USA:
    The Laughter of Carthage - Byzantium Endures - London Peculiar and Other Nonfiction - The Sunday Books - Doctor Who: The Coming of the Terraphiles
    Kizuna: Fiction for Japan - The Sundered Worlds - The Winds of Limbo - Modem Times 2.0 - Elric: Swords and Roses

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    • Guest's Avatar
      Anonymous

      #47
      Question about the boat and the mast Elric is tied to

      What book (if any) does it explain how Elric got onto the boat at the beginning and end of the book while he is in the his dream of a thousand years? It is bothering my b/f and I. Any help will be greatly appreciated. :) Thank you.

      Comment

      • Whiskers
        flying cat
        • Nov 2003
        • 1950

        #48
        Originally posted by GuyLawley
        What was your interpretation of "There was never a Runestaff." This felt rather odd to me, on an emotional level that is. I haven't quite sat down and recalled all of the other Runestaff bits (except for Hawkmoon, which I re-read last year). Oh, and by Hawkmoon's depressing fate, I meant this incarnation of his world; Isolda captured (and never seen), everyone but him and Ohladahn dead, Count Brass mortally wounded and all sent on a suicide mission. It seemed more desperate a life then the previous ones, even though each one cost him dearly.
        Consider Hawkmoon's madness, before Katinka van Bak found him (well, Jhary found him and took him too her). Hawkmoon was replaying the battle over and over again with his toy soldiers. This would have been after/duing the time that Baron Kalan was futzing with Time and creating (discovering?) the different threads that Hawkmoon was omnipresent within. The battle simulations resemble in function the Zietjugo and I wonder if he was recalling the iterations of the battle or creating those battles where he's doomed to experience those battles in other iterations of himself. But it's more likely that the incarnation of Hawkmoon in TWWS's reality finds himself at the mercy of Baron Kalan's experiments.

        There was never going to be a Runestaff, because the villian's hearts would be unable to summon it. A mechanism for The Cosmic Balance to preserve it's existance in the appropriate context.
        The cat spread its wings and flew high into the air, hovering to keep pace with them as they moved cautiously toward the city. Then, as they climbed over the rubble of what had once been a gateway and began to make their way through piles of weed-grown masonry, the cat flew to the squat building with the yellow dome upon its roof. It flew twice around the dome and then came back to settle on Jhary's shoulder. - The King of the Swords

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        • GuyLawley
          Champion of the Balance
          • Aug 2004
          • 1479

          #49
          Re: Question about the boat and the mast Elric is tied to

          Originally posted by katiereeree
          What book (if any) does it explain how Elric got onto the boat at the beginning and end of the book while he is in the his dream of a thousand years? It is bothering my b/f and I. Any help will be greatly appreciated. :) Thank you.
          In the book Stormbringer, before Elric has obtained the Horn of Roland and before the climactic battle with Chaos, Elric is captured by Jagreen Lern and hung up on the mast of Lern’s flagship to watch as the Chaos Fleet destroys the combined might of the Young Kingdoms’ navies. Elric has lost Stormbringer after using some mighty magics which I now forget, causing the sword to leave his home dimension.

          In Stormbringer we learn that Elric spends some hours semi-comatose, muttering spells and trying like crazy to get his runewsord to come back to him. We know that this is a major magical task and utterly exhausting to the already weakened Elric. What we only learn in The Skrayling Tree, and in more detail in White Wolf’s Son, is that he is living out The Dream Of A Thousand Years in order to get Stormbringer back.

          While Elric is living The Dream Of A Thousand Years, his body never moves from the mast of Jagreen Lern’s ship; I think you got that bit, right?

          Stormbringer is available as a stand-alone novel in old editions, in the second Elric Omnibus edition (called The Stealer of Souls (US) orStormbringer (UK), and in the Gollancz Fantasy Masterworks series volume titled just Elric. There is also a book club edition hardback trio called The Elric Saga and it's in Part II of that series.

          Comment

          • Dead-Air
            Eternal Champion
            • Jun 2004
            • 2737

            #50
            Originally posted by Michael Moorcock
            Must admit I'd hoped Gaynor's speech would be read as rhetorical, but then if it doesn't work for some readers, it doesn't work. I have always written on the principle that the reader is right, both in terms of complains and interpretation. Problem is at the moment, and indeed when I was writing that last book, I'm a bit painkillered up, so I can't be sure of anything entirely! Which isn't a bad state to be in, all in all. I think I'm going to be concentrating on shorter work until I can either get used to the painkilers or stop having to use them. I AM aware of a shorter than usual atention span.
            I takes an incredibly brave author to read a discussion thread online about his recently published work! And it takes a wise one to take that into consideration. Of course you absolutely can't please everyone all of the time, but maybe pleasing the easiest to please isn't the best tack. On the other hand, trying to please the hardest is not always either...

            Certainly there exists a core of readership here who would have a hard time criticizing Mr. Michael Moorcock at all for several reasons: 1) He's an extremely nice guy who's feelings we've come to appreciate as someone we actually know in this forum; 2) Most of us grew up reading his books, and they actually somehow grew up with us; 3) To deny the man's contribution to the history of fantastic fiction, and arguably also experimental prose, is well nigh impossible; 4) He often writes from a perspective that is at best difficult to "get" in one sitting, and so criticisms might well blow up in our faces.

            I consider myself, at least to some degree, a part of that core. Yet I feel compelled to return the author's bravery in kind in this social experiment of the open internet board. The White Wolf's Son was not my personal favorite of the new Elric series, though I still enjoyed it quite a bit.

            I agree wholeheartedly with Governor of Rowe Island's assessment that the book reads at many points like a Cornelius story. In fact, much more than an Elric or even Elric/Oona/Von Bek trilogy book. For me this brought on several familiar frustrations I had with the Jerry C. series. I often found myself reading those books more because I felt like I "should" than because I wanted to. They were a type of intellectual medicine, if you will. They didn't really create a suspension of disbelief so much as a satirical framework for consideration. In the end this works for Jerry as it's what Jerry is all about, but is more difficult to encounter in an Elric tale. All the offstage action left me feeling empty at times as a reader, and saddened to think that perhaps the author really was tired of this subject matter and not wanting to go there whole-heartedly. Like Jerry's books it was confusing, and yet there was an undeniable subtext to it that had something more. Just read Guy's example of how Elric reclaimed Stormbringer to see what I'm getting at.

            I recall reading some rather harsh criticism of the Dreamthief's Daughter, I think maybe it was just someone's Amazon review, that claimed that book spent too much time with the character's pontificating about the nature of the Multiverse. When I read TDD, I couldn't see what the reviewer had been talking about, yet I did start to get that same feeling myself several times in TWS.

            I loved Lord Reynard and his relationship with Oonagh, but I must say the ultimate sacrilege of a Moorcock story - it reminded me more of C. S. Lewis's Narnia than Alice in Wonderland! Especially when in the end the little girl seemed to grow up into normality that didn't have room for talking foxes anymore. Pissed me off actually, as that was what I always hated about Narnia most, the whole growing up so you can't go here anymore trip.

            I did notice the Gaynor rattling off what everyone had done, as if he knew that someone was reading this section, and thought myself this was a bit like a super-villian in a comic book or cartoon bragging about his evil deeds while the hero is tied up and forced to listen. Of course comic books have always been an important influence on Michael's prose, so I guess it didn't bother me so much as being notable. A bit corny perhaps? Perhaps, but Gaynor is somewhat laughable in general if you stop to think of him and his pathetic "damnedness". He ever seems that if he'd just stop being a jerk he wouldn't be so damned, but then that's the archetype.

            So despite some of my troubles with the book, and not being as spellbound as I had hoped and come to expect from the last two, I found it a very worthy experiment. A Narnian tale told by the likes of Jerry Cornelius's crew with guest appearances from the Legion of Doom, all disguised as the "final" Elric novel. Michael Moorcock continues to ambitiously push the boundaries of his own moonbeam roads. Maybe I just need to read it again on Vicodin...
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            • Ant
              Ant
              Eternal Companion
              • Dec 2003
              • 711

              #51
              Originally posted by Dead-Air
              ... but I must say the ultimate sacrilege of a Moorcock story - it reminded me more of C. S. Lewis's Narnia than Alice in Wonderland! ...
              A sort of... Elric Pooh, then?

              Cordialement,
              Ant

              Comment

              • Michael Moorcock
                Site Host
                • Dec 2003
                • 14278

                #52
                To be honest, pards, this is why I am giving up writing new 'straight' fantasy novels. I feel I'm pushing the envelope too far out so that the books no longer deliver what they should be delivering, which is a good, fast read without too much need for working out what's going on. I personally just can't see how I can develop the form further, in other words, without it ceasing to be that form. Thus it moves closer to a Cornelius book, as you suggest, Dead. Now I, of course, have always argued that Cornelius stories don't need to be interpreted, that they were in fact written to deter or confuse modernist interpretation. One critics suggested in the 60s or early 70s that the best thing to do was to jump into them and then strike out for the nearest firm ground. Not every reader enjoys this kind of fiction, of course, but at least it's pretty clear from the beginning what it is. If Elric and Cornelius have come together once again at the end, then that's probably a very good time to stop, since Cornelius started with a riff on the first Elric story I ever wrote.
                I HAVE to keep trying something new with the Elric books, or I don't believe I'm being true either to the reader or myself, but I also think I know when to stop. Hope so, anyway. :)

                Pre-order or Buy my latest titles in Europe:
                The Whispering Swarm: Book One of the Sanctuary of the White Friars - The Laughter of Carthage - Byzantium Endures - London Peculiar and Other Nonfiction
                Doctor Who: The Coming of the Terraphiles - Kizuna: Fiction for Japan - Modem Times 2.0 - The Sunday Books - The Sundered Worlds


                Pre-order or Buy my latest titles in the USA:
                The Laughter of Carthage - Byzantium Endures - London Peculiar and Other Nonfiction - The Sunday Books - Doctor Who: The Coming of the Terraphiles
                Kizuna: Fiction for Japan - The Sundered Worlds - The Winds of Limbo - Modem Times 2.0 - Elric: Swords and Roses

                Comment

                • Doc
                  Doc
                  Eternal Champion
                  • Jan 2004
                  • 3630

                  #53
                  My own two cents...

                  What's so bad about an Elric story that feels like a JC story?

                  I understand that the characters are supposed to do different things and that the stories themselves explore different things, both structurally and thematically. Having said that, I find that the grand promise of pushing boundaries--as most of MM's work does-- is that you challenge everything that is familiar, forcing people to consider and re-consider what they already know, or at least think they already know.

                  I would throw the second ether into this conversation. I always found that Blood challenged people because it seemed like a typical fantasy, but it had a slightly disorienting feel, as it doesn't rely on comfortable themes and structures. To me, that's what made it work, and that is why JC works for me, as well. Sam and Jack are all the more human (and all the more tragic) because of the dismisal of much convention, and the ideas of the archetecture of the multiverse are more clear because of it, as well. I'm not even sure that such work is fantasy any more (and certainly not "straight" fantasy), and I really hope that there are more of these stories.

                  My broader point in relation to this conversation is (and I think there is one)--
                  I understand that Elric scratches a different itch than JC or the second ether, or even Pyat, whose stories are also almost fantasy, too. However, I think Elric runs the risk of being the worst kind of literary character--an archetype that even the original author has exhausted-- unless the Elric stories continue to do something different. I would much rather think of him as retired than cliche, static, or worst of all, irrelevant.

                  Comment

                  • GuyLawley
                    Champion of the Balance
                    • Aug 2004
                    • 1479

                    #54
                    Originally posted by Michael Moorcock
                    If Elric and Cornelius have come together once again at the end, then that's probably a very good time to stop, since Cornelius started with a riff on the first Elric story I ever wrote.
                    You know, in all this "deep thought" about WWS, I'd forgotten that salient point (i.e. that The Final Program starts off as a 20th century re-write of The Dreaming City and While the Gods Laugh). What a way to “come full circle� – In fact WWS “comes full circle� in more ways than one, then.

                    Bravo for bringing that up Mike; it fair brings a smile to my lips and a tear to my eye at the same time. Reminds me of when I first “got� the Jerry/Elric connection. What a buzz!

                    Originally posted by Michael Moorcock
                    I HAVE to keep trying something new with the Elric books, or I don't believe I'm being true either to the reader or myself, but I also think I know when to stop. Hope so, anyway. :)
                    Bravo again, and that urge to do something new has certainly shone out.

                    But also: please please please do come back to these characters in comic strip form again. Maybe with some smaller scale stories in which the Multiverse isn’t always on the brink of destruction. Some “filling in the gaps� stories perhaps (assuming they spring to mind).

                    There are so many great comics artist out there who ought to have good stories to illustrate, and with Alan Moore retiring (again) there are precious few great writers in the medium (if any) !

                    Comment

                    • Typhoid_Mary
                      Little Voice
                      • Jun 2004
                      • 541

                      #55
                      Originally posted by GuyLawley
                      There are so many great comics artist out there who ought to have good stories to illustrate, and with Alan Moore retiring (again) there are precious few great writers in the medium (if any) !
                      I'd love to see Alan Davis draw something written by Mike. That would be fantastic.

                      The Eternal Champion would be an ideal subject for an anthology comic. Every issue could have a few stories featuring different aspects by different creative teams, perhaps working from plots by Mike. A neat way of "filling in the gaps", as Guy put it.

                      Went a bit off topic there. Sorry. :)

                      Comment

                      • Dead-Air
                        Eternal Champion
                        • Jun 2004
                        • 2737

                        #56
                        Originally posted by GuyLawley
                        Originally posted by Michael Moorcock
                        If Elric and Cornelius have come together once again at the end, then that's probably a very good time to stop, since Cornelius started with a riff on the first Elric story I ever wrote.
                        You know, in all this "deep thought" about WWS, I'd forgotten that salient point (i.e. that The Final Program starts off as a 20th century re-write of The Dreaming City and While the Gods Laugh). What a way to “come full circle� – In fact WWS “comes full circle� in more ways than one, then.

                        Bravo for bringing that up Mike; it fair brings a smile to my lips and a tear to my eye at the same time. Reminds me of when I first “got� the Jerry/Elric connection. What a buzz!
                        That does make perfect sense to me too. I loved the Cornelius living Elric's life beginning of the Final Program myself too. Perhaps it is further proof that I relate closer to Elric's camp that this is for me the most memorable (and comprehendible) Cornelius story. So the idea that Elric might be in a sense living Jerry's life is very interesting. His role does indeed seem more that of existential messiah than melancholy kinslayer. Maybe I just needed a bigger hint in the narrative to convert from, "Damn it this is more like a Cornelius book than an Elric one!" to, "Aha, after 1,000 years in a dream the champion has become his inverse self."
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                        Comment

                        • GuyLawley
                          Champion of the Balance
                          • Aug 2004
                          • 1479

                          #57
                          Originally posted by Typhoid_Mary

                          I'd love to see Alan Davis draw something written by Mike. That would be fantastic.
                          I just came in my pants at the very idea (well, metaphorically at least).

                          I like the anthology idea except that I think having other writers work on it would inevitably dilute the strength of the characters and the very idea. So I'm against that.

                          Unless it was Alan Moore, Neil Gaiman, Walter Simonson and Bryan Talbot. That goes without saying, right? :)

                          Comment

                          • Typhoid_Mary
                            Little Voice
                            • Jun 2004
                            • 541

                            #58
                            Originally posted by GuyLawley
                            Originally posted by Typhoid_Mary

                            I'd love to see Alan Davis draw something written by Mike. That would be fantastic.
                            I just came in my pants at the very idea (well, metaphorically at least).
                            :lol:

                            Originally posted by GuyLawley
                            Unless it was Alan Moore, Neil Gaiman, Walter Simonson and Bryan Talbot. That goes without saying, right? :)
                            Alan Moore and Bryan Talbot doing a Jerry Cornelius story. How amazing would that be?

                            Comment

                            • GuyLawley
                              Champion of the Balance
                              • Aug 2004
                              • 1479

                              #59
                              Of course, Bryan T can write up a storm as well as draw reel gud, and I think would have a great "feel" for many of the EC characters;perhaps Jerry C especially.

                              Alan Davies is a tremendous talent at the "conventional" end of comics narrative art. He would probably do an amazing job on the S&S storylines.

                              Remember what a pleasure it was to see his art evolve before your eyes in the early days of the "new" Captain Britain all those years ago? Were you around to witness that, Typhoid?

                              Comment

                              • Typhoid_Mary
                                Little Voice
                                • Jun 2004
                                • 541

                                #60
                                I was aware of Captain Britain's relaunch and had a few issues of Marvel Super-Heroes, but I only started paying attention to Alan Davis's art when I started collecting The Daredevils. That would have been in 1983, when I was nine! I also remember buying a few issues of Warrior (my mum tore them up after seeing the Father Sandor strip) and being stunned by his artwork on Marvelman. His work for 2000AD was excellent as well. I loved DR & Quinch. Alan Moore and Alan Davis were a match made in heaven!

                                Have you been to Alan Davis's new website? Lots of unpublished artwork, including two ERB inspired pieces.

                                http://www.alandavis-comicart.com/
                                http://www.alandavis-comicart.com/im...ohn-Carter.jpg
                                http://www.alandavis-comicart.com/images/wDejahCom.jpg

                                Wildly off-topic again. :)

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