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White Wolf's Son *SPOILERS* Discussion Thread

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  • GuyLawley
    Champion of the Balance
    • Aug 2004
    • 1479

    #16
    quote="RCraigRobinson"]having only read of Elric and Bek and naught of Count Brass and
    Hawkmoon, I can only speculum, errr, speculate...
    perhaps it is the very belief of the Runestaff by the denizens of Granbretan
    which calls the actual Runestaff into existence among other branes.
    [/quote]

    Well that's pretty much what I thought, only it's not just the Granbretanians but lots of people on that plane (or many similar planes) perhaps, whose belief brings it into reality.

    Or, maybe, some special need of the EC who, as Hawkmoon, saved the Balance at the end of WWS, could have been the final catalyst for the Runestaff’s emergence into reality; to help Hawkmoon and his just cause in other planes.

    Alternatively, in the reality of WWS, the Runestaff is still there in unknown Amerehk, it’s just that neither Hawkmoon nor Oona knows it’s there!

    In this case it was Hawkmoon’s unfortunate choice in not accepting help from the Runestaff servant that nearly doomed his struggle on this particular plane. This is my favoured explanation.

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    • Guest's Avatar
      TheCRZA

      #17
      formerly RCR, anyway.

      the runestaff actually takes substance in Skrayling Tree, yes?

      Something else that never occurred to me, the whole Klosterheim
      and Gaynor as a negative Companion and Champion... heroes of unBalance.

      Has the sword of Law, mirheen, ever been in an EC story before?

      I seem to recall Elric fighting Miggea with a silvery negative of
      Stormbringer in TDD, is this the same sword?

      Comment

      • CandyFlossCow
        Starfighter Pilot
        • Nov 2004
        • 94

        #18
        I finished WWS last week. Absolutely loved it! Great ride, thanks Mike :D

        I had forgotten (shame on me) how wonderful the Dark Empire setting was - I'd like to see Granbretan hit the big screen sometime! Klosterheim is definitely a very amusing fellow. The scene with him, Gaynor and Elric sipping coffee in the fairground was perfect. Brilliant stuff.

        Comment

        • Mikey_C
          Champion of the Balance
          • May 2004
          • 1511

          #19
          I finished it yesterday. Most enjoyable and unputdownable. I now realise its time to go back to The History of the Runestaff. I think this was a fitting end to the series as it pulled together the feeling as well as the themes of so many of the earlier books. And I'm a great fan of Lord Renyard!

          I'm not sure the child narrator was the best idea, as quite often she has thoughts which seem quite advanced for her years, eg. appreciation of Theakston's Old Peculier (a reference to one of my favourite bevies!).

          I shall also have to go back to Bastable's story. It came as a joLieutenant when he nuked Londra. Was this the only solution? Predictably for me, perhaps, I would prefer to have seen the proles of Granbretan rise up and overthrow their oppressors. I'd be interested in Mike's thoughts on that one when he gets back.

          The circularity was good. I'm sure it will send us all back to read past volumes!
          \"...an ape reft of his tail, and grown rusty at climbing, who yet feels himself to be a symbol and the frail representative of Omnipotence in a place that is not home.\" James Branch Cabell

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          • Guest's Avatar
            Anonymous

            #20
            That Damned Gaynor!

            Has anyone noticed that in Revenge of the Rose, Prince Gaynor manages to hold Stormbringer without damage,yet in TWWS he gets burnt while holding Mournblade, until he drinks Onric's/Jack D'Acre's blood? Does Mournblade dislike Gaynor more than Stormbringer? Or is this a mistake on MM's part.

            Has anyone noticed that Gaynor tells all his compatriots and St Odhran what they already should know?"You,St Odhran, supplied the sword.You gentlemen,brought the two bowls." This seems to me to be a bit daft.Why would Gaynor tell his compatriots about what they already know they have done.His compatriots should reply "No shit ,Sherlock?" MM could have let us know about these events without resorting to having characters telling each other what they already know.To digress slightly MM has two Melniboneans doing this in Elric The Making of a Sorceror, Part 2."Perhaps not.They say she was furious at his leaving.She claimed he was plotting with our enemies the Falkryn..."(Wouldn't the other Melnibonean that this dialogue was directed to know that their enemies were the Falkryn?) This seems to be a bad habit developing in MM's writing style.
            The end chapter of TWWS appears prophetic in that it depicts apocalyptic thunderstorms around various places, including Yorkshire.Recently here in Yorkshire we had some very bad thunderstorms.Parts of North Yorkshire were flooded and it seemed apocalyptic at the time.Coincidence or just part of the multiverse showing itself for real?
            Despite my criticism of some of small bits of TWWS I felt slightly weepy on finishing the book.After all I've been reading MM's fantasy for most of my adult life.
            Let me finish by recommending The War Amonst The Angels for more Ulrich Von Bek/Zodiac.

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            • Guest's Avatar
              Anonymous

              #21
              Re: That Damned Gaynor!

              Originally posted by Cyaeghan
              Has anyone noticed that in Revenge of the Rose, Prince Gaynor manages to hold Stormbringer without damage,yet in TWWS he gets burnt while holding Mournblade, until he drinks Onric's/Jack D'Acre's blood? Does Mournblade dislike Gaynor more than Stormbringer? Or is this a mistake on MM's part.



              Are you sure that you want to criticize MM on such stuff on his own site? :?




              Has anyone noticed that Gaynor tells all his compatriots and St Odhran what they already should know?"You,St Odhran, supplied the sword.You gentlemen,brought the two bowls." This seems to me to be a bit daft.Why would Gaynor tell his compatriots about what they already know they have done.His compatriots should reply "No shit ,Sherlock?" MM could have let us know about these events without resorting to having characters telling each other what they already know.To digress slightly MM has two Melniboneans doing this in Elric The Making of a Sorceror, Part 2."Perhaps not.They say she was furious at his leaving.She claimed he was plotting with our enemies the Falkryn..."(Wouldn't the other Melnibonean that this dialogue was directed to know that their enemies were the Falkryn?) This seems to be a bad habit developing in MM's writing style.



              I agree.Authors who use such dialogue are cheating on their readers.If MM hasd done this he is being a tad lazy in my opinion. 8O







              The end chapter of TWWS appears prophetic in that it depicts apocalyptic thunderstorms around various places, including Yorkshire.Recently here in Yorkshire we had some very bad thunderstorms.Parts of North Yorkshire were flooded and it seemed apocalyptic at the time.Coincidence or just part of the multiverse showing itself for real?
              Despite my criticism of some of small bits of TWWS I felt slightly weepy on finishing the book.After all I've been reading MM's fantasy for most of my adult life.
              Let me finish by recommending The War Amonst The Angels for more Ulrich Von Bek/Zodiac.

              Comment

              • Michael Moorcock
                Site Host
                • Dec 2003
                • 14278

                #22
                Sorry if I seem lazy. I'm sometimes asked by editors to make things a 'bit clearer' and so you do tend occasionally to get this sort of thing. But don't worry. If it's a habit, I'm over it, since I don't plan to write any more Elric... That said, | appreciate these criticisms and maybe can incorporate them in later editions. It's been a bit of a struggle this past year, with health problems constantly interrupting the flow, so stuff has taken longer to write and it's possible I've lost the thread here and there. Bloody painkillers haven't helped. I've been far more absent-minded, for instance. Just left a bunch of stuff in Spain, including the special cover which goes over my foot and enables me to shower, which makes me feel downright stupid. Another good reason I should probably take a bit of a rest from doing any long work for a while.
                Maybe John Davey could list all the things that are either mistakes or which reader's think don't work some time. I'd say the graphic novel stuff was probably legitimate, since so much has to be condensed there, but I'll certainly look at the book again first chance that arises.

                Pre-order or Buy my latest titles in Europe:
                The Whispering Swarm: Book One of the Sanctuary of the White Friars - The Laughter of Carthage - Byzantium Endures - London Peculiar and Other Nonfiction
                Doctor Who: The Coming of the Terraphiles - Kizuna: Fiction for Japan - Modem Times 2.0 - The Sunday Books - The Sundered Worlds


                Pre-order or Buy my latest titles in the USA:
                The Laughter of Carthage - Byzantium Endures - London Peculiar and Other Nonfiction - The Sunday Books - Doctor Who: The Coming of the Terraphiles
                Kizuna: Fiction for Japan - The Sundered Worlds - The Winds of Limbo - Modem Times 2.0 - Elric: Swords and Roses

                Comment

                • CandyFlossCow
                  Starfighter Pilot
                  • Nov 2004
                  • 94

                  #23
                  Yep, it was great - every bit as good as I had hoped when I picked it up. Granbretan was rendered beautifully, Klosterheim was excellent. The Lieutenant thing was annoyingly silly, but that's the fault of some malevolent software, no doubt.

                  Anyway, all the best on the health front, Mike. Any rest would be well deserved!

                  Comment

                  • lemec
                    Eternal Champion
                    • Jul 2005
                    • 5309

                    #24
                    White Wolf's Son

                    Hello, does anyone know if Prince Lobkowitz is in some way related to the Prince Lobkowitz who lived from 1772-1816? I am just curious,I saw him listed on the internet as a friend of Beethoven. Thank You.

                    I also loved the new book. Oh, one more question about the Multiverse,
                    does Maaschanheem translate to mean "Mittel March? or is that just one of the names for it? (The Middle March).

                    "With a deep, not-unhappy sigh, Elric prepared to do battle with an army." (Red Pearls)
                    - Michael Moorcock

                    Comment

                    • Guest's Avatar
                      Anonymous

                      #25
                      Tell it how it is.

                      Originally posted by TheAdlerian
                      It was great! Don't worry about it.


                      The criticicism seems valid to me.If MM is having characters telling each other about events that they should already know about, then he should worry.Some readers will feel shortchanged by such clumsy technique, worthy of a novice but not a long time writer.
                      However some readers will accept such things and think they are "great".
                      Well, they're not!
                      Please be worried MM if you plan on writing any more stories.Please don't use the clumsy device of characters telling each other known facts, when better techniques could be employed.
                      Some readers are demanding, like you were when you wrote Wizardry and Wild Romance.

                      Matt

                      Comment

                      • xidrep
                        Champion of the Balance
                        • Nov 2004
                        • 1783

                        #26
                        ? :? Steady on chaps!

                        People tell me things I already know all the time, (a) because I've forgotten them, or pretend I have, or (b) to emphasis their point (think: wife).
                        Isn't Gaynor merely reiterating known events to his audience as a rhetorical device, to emphasise his (and hence the plot's) point? This is hardly an unconventional or invalid literary or polemic device, gentlemen!

                        Comment

                        • GuyLawley
                          Champion of the Balance
                          • Aug 2004
                          • 1479

                          #27
                          Originally posted by Perdix
                          Isn't Gaynor merely reiterating known events to his audience as a rhetorical device, to emphasise his (and hence the plot's) point? This is hardly an unconventional or invalid literary or polemic device, gentlemen!
                          I'm with you, Perdix. I read that passage as rhetoric/polemic.

                          Gaynor is gloating and working himself and his chums into a suitable frame of mind for the big ritual.

                          It's like Hitler giving a speech at a big rally, telling the massed ranks, "You have brought us this far with your fanatical dedication to the Nazi creed! And also with your subscription fees!" They know that, he knows they know that, they know he knows they know it; he's going to tell them anyway and they want to hear it again. Rhetorical, ritualistic... where's the problem?

                          Comment

                          • Ant
                            Ant
                            Eternal Companion
                            • Dec 2003
                            • 711

                            #28
                            Agreed. This kind of literary device goes back at least as far as Homer.

                            Αντ

                            Comment

                            • Mikey_C
                              Champion of the Balance
                              • May 2004
                              • 1511

                              #29
                              I must say it didn't bother me. And my critical faculties are live and kicking.
                              \"...an ape reft of his tail, and grown rusty at climbing, who yet feels himself to be a symbol and the frail representative of Omnipotence in a place that is not home.\" James Branch Cabell

                              Comment

                              • Michael Moorcock
                                Site Host
                                • Dec 2003
                                • 14278

                                #30
                                Must admit I'd hoped Gaynor's speech would be read as rhetorical, but then if it doesn't work for some readers, it doesn't work. I have always written on the principle that the reader is right, both in terms of complains and interpretation. Problem is at the moment, and indeed when I was writing that last book, I'm a bit painkillered up, so I can't be sure of anything entirely! Which isn't a bad state to be in, all in all. I think I'm going to be concentrating on shorter work until I can either get used to the painkilers or stop having to use them. I AM aware of a shorter than usual atention span.

                                Pre-order or Buy my latest titles in Europe:
                                The Whispering Swarm: Book One of the Sanctuary of the White Friars - The Laughter of Carthage - Byzantium Endures - London Peculiar and Other Nonfiction
                                Doctor Who: The Coming of the Terraphiles - Kizuna: Fiction for Japan - Modem Times 2.0 - The Sunday Books - The Sundered Worlds


                                Pre-order or Buy my latest titles in the USA:
                                The Laughter of Carthage - Byzantium Endures - London Peculiar and Other Nonfiction - The Sunday Books - Doctor Who: The Coming of the Terraphiles
                                Kizuna: Fiction for Japan - The Sundered Worlds - The Winds of Limbo - Modem Times 2.0 - Elric: Swords and Roses

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