Permission Needed

[Digger]

Hi, hopefully this is an appropriate place for this question. I'm writing a supplement for Chaosium games, more of a new game based on the concept of the Multiverse, and I need to know if I need express permission from Mr. Moorcock to use a qoute or two from his books, as well as character names and descriptions for the game. I assume I will need permission, but since this isn't exactly a business proposition, contacting an agent seemed a bit daft. Mr. Moorcock, I assume you are familiar with the company, it produces the roleplaying game Stormbringer, and Hawkmoon, as well as distributing Corum, all based on your work. I hesitate to go into more detail on a public forum about the nature of this game, or other details. If I need to go through your agent for this discussion, please let me know.

[Morgan Kane]

And the shit hit the fan ......

MMM expressed himself on his relationship with Chaosium .....

[devilchicken]

And the shit hit the fan ......

MMM expressed himself on his relationship with Chaosium .....

Indeed, very dicey - considering that any sort of permission regarding developments to Chaosium's products would likely complicate the already messy copyright issues.

[voilodian ghagnasdiak]

Past discussions on Multiversal rpg.

http://www.multiverse.org/fora/showthread.php?t=959

http://www.multiverse.org/fora/showthread.php?t=4111

[Digger]

wow, I had no idea it was like that. I had (wrongfully) assumed that Chaosium had some sort of deal with Moorcock. perhaps I should seek out other publishers huh. I'll still use their game mechanics of course, seems they have no respect for others in that regard.
Obviously the fact that I asked here shows that I intend to honor normal copyright agreements, and if it comes down to it, I won't use the material for any purpose other than my own games.
Sorry to have opened up a can o' worms.

[Morgan Kane]

No evil intended, no evil done !

smile ... and welcome here ... Now MM is very liberal with people behaving !

[David Mosley]

wow, I had no idea it was like that. I had (wrongfully) assumed that Chaosium had some sort of deal with Moorcock.

Of course, Chaosium would argue that they do have "some sort of deal" with Mike, it's just that Mike would argue that Chaosium haven't kept their side of the deal.

AIUI, Chaosium have sub-licenced their RuneQuest mechanics to Mongoose Games, who are supposed to be releasing a new
Hawkmoon RPG in February 2007 (according to Amazon). There's a thread on this development here. Mike is aware of this new game and has said he'll annouce more news as and when he's cleared to release it.

perhaps I should seek out other publishers huh. I'll still use their game mechanics of course, seems they have no respect for others in that regard.

Mongoose seem to be positioning themselves to handle any RPGs based on Mike's books - with the exception of Elric, which Chaosium are keen to hold to themselves (for obvious reasons) even if they're not actually doing anything with the property at the moment.

Can I ask: when you say, "I'm writing a supplement for Chaosium games" is that meant in an official capacity (ie Chaosium have hired/asked you to write the supplement) or are you working on a more unofficial level; either writing it as informal, freelance, 'on spec' submission or as a private supplement for your own personal game playing use?

Your first post gave me the impression that this might be an official publication from Chaosium themselves, whereas the later post seems to imply you're working in a more 'independent' capacity.

Obviously the fact that I asked here shows that I intend to honor normal copyright agreements, and if it comes down to it, I won't use the material for any purpose other than my own games.
Sorry to have opened up a can o' worms.

If you're at all interested, some other readers here are discussed developing an 'unofficial' GURPS-style 'Eternal Champion' RPG. You can find a thread on it here. Please feel free to make any contributions or post any suggestions there as you want to.

[Digger]

To answer your question David, originally it was just for my own games, I had moved to a new area, and found myself without a group to game with, so I worked on some things I had been meaning to do, but with running weekly games couldn't. After a while the mini project mutated into several new rules, and tweaks that I was going to submit to the Chaosium newsletter, so other GM's could use it. As I got more material written it seemed clear that it would just make more sense to submit it as a monograph. So essentially I'm writing it with submission as the intent, though the only reason I wanted to submit it to Chaosium was for the ease of it, as it's intended to supplement the core games (even Call of Cthulu). I really don't care if I make any money from it, it's more of a labor of love for fans of Mike's books that play roleplaying games, particularly those who already know the Chaosium mechanics. Going through another publisher will be tricky, due to the licensing, though it seems that Mongoose may be a decent bet, eh? I haven't actually gamed in years, and the only system that I know inside and out is the Chaosium system, I'm comfortable with the mechanics and how they work, so designing new rules comes easy for me. I have no intention of learning another system, so if this falls through, perhaps I'll just give my game ideas away to the folks in the thread you mentioned. Knowing now, about the issues between MM, and Chaosium, this will likely never see print; I have no wish to bring my favorite author more grief. Hope this answers your questions, sorry to be so long winded, it's just my nature.

[David Mosley]

Digger, thanks for the explanation. I can't speak for Mike of course - hopefully Mike will answer himself when he gets back from his travels - but while Mike has issues with Chaosium, I don't think he's ever had issues with the people who play the games themselves. Wanting to do something for personal, non-profit purposes is quite different from trying to make money off the back of his work, so it's probably worth 'bumping' this thread when Mike's next online.

[Michael Moorcock]

People have told me that they, too, have had problems with Chaosium regarding payments and so forth, so you could sell it to them, I'd guess and have precious little chance of seeing whatever money you were promised, assuming you were promised any...But of course in this case, submitting tweaks and so forth to existing rules by a player is certainly doing me no further harm, as it were and I remain torn between not wishing to spoil the pleasure of people who enjoy playing the Chaosium game (s) and just bringing a stop to the whole thing for a while. Meanwhile, however, pard, make your tweaks and go in grace.

[Reinart der Fuchs]

Now that's generosity.

[Ian]

AIUI, Chaosium have sub-licenced their RuneQuest mechanics to Mongoose Games, who are supposed to be releasing a new
Hawkmoon RPG in February 2007 (according to Amazon). There's a thread on this development here. Mike is aware of this new game and has said he'll annouce more news as and when he's cleared to release it.


Mongoose seem to be positioning themselves to handle any RPGs based on Mike's books - with the exception of Elric, which Chaosium are keen to hold to themselves (for obvious reasons) even if they're not actually doing anything with the property at the moment.

Just a few points of clarification -

Chaosium did not sub-license the RuneQuest mechanics to Mongoose. Game
mechanics are not copyrightable - only the exact or very closely derived verbage
is. The game RuneQuest is what Mongoose has license to now, and the license
was granted by the current holder Greg Stafford. This gets a bit confusing, but
Chaosium gave up the RuneQuest rights years ago to Avalon Hill, who in turn
was bought out by Hasbro (who now owns Wizards of the Coast and D&D).
Hasbro let the trademark go, and Greg Stafford picked it back up (Greg was
the original holder of the trademark, and was also the original head of Chaosium).
Greg, in turn, cut a deal with Mongoose. Mongoose got the BRP (Chaosium's
current house system) based RuneQuest game, while Issaries got the HeroQuest
game, and Greg retains all of the Glorantha rights (the world used as the basis
for both RuneQuest and HeroQuest).

Chaosium, Mongoose and Mike are supposedly working on a deal that will allow
Mongoose to write/publish Eternal Champion based sourcebooks for the RuneQuest
system (so far, Elric, Hawkmoon and Corum are hinted at, but there has been
no formal announcements made, nor has Mongoose even stated that the deal
is complete - in actuality, Matt Sprange has said the deal has yet to be
completed).

Ian

[David Mosley]

Just a few points of clarification -

Thanks for clarifying that, Ian. That's what happens when a layman attempts to summarise an already complex situation. Sorry if I confused or misled anyone.

[Ian]

People have told me that they, too, have had problems with Chaosium regarding payments and so forth, so you could sell it to them, I'd guess and have precious little chance of seeing whatever money you were promised, assuming you were promised any...But of course in this case, submitting tweaks and so forth to existing rules by a player is certainly doing me no further harm, as it were and I remain torn between not wishing to spoil the pleasure of people who enjoy playing the Chaosium game (s) and just bringing a stop to the whole thing for a while. Meanwhile, however, pard, make your tweaks and go in grace.

Yep - last I heard, Lawrence Whitaker still has not been paid for his Hawkmoon
monograph.

I do hope everything gets resolved soon, and I am curious to see what Mongoose
has in store. But I have some trepidation - Mongoose has had issues with some
of its better contributors and the quality has been hit or miss. I hope the
writers they have lined up have some good ideas.

Otherwise, I would still like a crack at it - my notes are growing on mods to
the Chaosium BRP system, as well as corrections/additions to the background
material to keep it more in line with the tales. Goldar really must go ;)

Ian

[Ian]

Thanks for clarifying that, Ian. That's what happens when a layman attempts to summarise an already complex situation. Sorry if I confused or misled anyone.

No problem. You're welcome. The situation is indeed very complex and muddy
- sometimes I wonder how I keep things straight (and sometimes, I need to be
corrected as well). I guess getting to see all sides of the issues helps, but
some days I get a headache from all the info !! It's hard having friends on the
three sides and trying to keep in the middle. Between Mike, some contributors
to the game line, and the players, I often feel torn about how to proceed.

Ian