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The Star of Chaos

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  • The Star of Chaos

    Mike, do you by any chance get royalties when people use the "eight pointed star of chaos"? I was recently playing Warhammer: Dawn of War, nd after some forces escape there was a cut scene "The ship bore the eight-pointed star of chaos. . . " ! Man, your stuff sneaks into everything. I'm fairly new to the Warhammer universe, so having "chaos" as an active force and standards of that star came as a surprise to me. . . :(

  • #2
    Originally posted by On Tue Aug 31, 2004 8:59 am, Michael Moorcock
    Yes, it's the case. I drew it at my kitchen table while thinking up suitable symbols for Law (a single arrow) and Chaos (eight arrows representing all possible choices). Games Workshop couldn't exist without the things they've ripped off from me and Tolkien. If they'd made more of the material, I wouldn't mind. But they've dumbed it down, too. Sometimes I get weary of this crap. Other times, people remind me, that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. A more sincere form of flattery than that, of course, is when they ask you first. As I've often said -- they can say it's flattery, but that's the flattery of the guy you catch in your apartment when you come home at night and he's just heading for the fire escape with your new TV. 'Great taste in TVs, man,' he says....
    Originally posted by And on Tue Sep 07, 2004 3:50 pm Michael Moorcock again
    I could have trademarked it at some point, I suppose, but I wouldn't want to. Games Workshop's lifting from me and Tolkien might have introduced new readers, but it's still irritating! However, there's a certain satisfaction of having added a few bits and pieces to the common culture to the extent that people actually don't know the origins of stuff and ideas they now use casually. None of that bothers me. The intellectual property I'm interested in protecting is my actual fiction, characters, backgrounds and so on. There's a lot to be written about the processes which develop a genre and then make it a popular genre and I, of course, was part of a group, including Tolkien and Leiber, who wrote individual books which then helped create and then became absorbed into a popular genre. It's a very strange feeling to have ideas which you regard as your individual ideas become part of the common culture.
    'Nuff said, I suspect. ;)

    See http://www.multiverse.org/fora/showthread.php?p=18135 for more on 'The Arrows of Chaos'.
    Last edited by David Mosley; 01-31-2013, 06:10 AM. Reason: Link restored (probably)
    _"For an eternity Allard was alone in an icy limbo where all the colours were bright and sharp and comfortless.
    _For another eternity Allard swam through seas without end, all green and cool and deep, where distorted creatures drifted, sometimes attacking him.
    _And then, at last, he had reached the real world – the world he had created, where he was God and could create or destroy whatever he wished.
    _He was supremely powerful. He told planets to destroy themselves, and they did. He created suns. Beautiful women flocked to be his. Of all men, he was the mightiest. Of all gods, he was the greatest."

    Comment


    • #3
      I'll admit that the first time I really became aware of Chaos (as an armed force) and the Star thereof, was playing table-top battle games... very, very badly. I wish, instead, those models had borne a little inscription which read: "Stop being tactically out-manoeuvred by your friend's younger siblings... go out and talk to girls, dammit."

      When I am King, people who use Mike's logos and characters will have to pay up, and so will anyone who has Betty Page bangs. So be it!
      "That which does not kill us, makes us stranger." - Trevor Goodchild

      Comment


      • #4
        You might find this interesting: Symbols of Chaos... :oops:

        Ciao,
        Ant

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by DeeCrowSeer
          I'll admit that the first time I really became aware of Chaos (as an armed force) and the Star thereof, was playing table-top battle games... very, very badly. I wish, instead, those models had borne a little inscription which read: "Stop being tactically out-manoeuvred by your friend's younger siblings... go out and talk to girls, dammit."

          When I am King, people who use Mike's logos and characters will have to pay up, and so will anyone who has Betty Page bangs. So be it!
          Betty Page! Goodness, I had forgotten about that icon of , er, what exactly again?
          Anyway let's include her birthday, April 22nd, in the BD-thread!
          You in particular will know how many artists, not only photographers she has inspired, amazing:
          http://www.grrl.com/bpart2.html
          Google ergo sum

          Comment


          • #6
            Betty Page was, in many ways, only the image that gentlemen of a certain age remember fondly. Bettie Page is the name of the woman behind that image.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bettie_Page
            _"For an eternity Allard was alone in an icy limbo where all the colours were bright and sharp and comfortless.
            _For another eternity Allard swam through seas without end, all green and cool and deep, where distorted creatures drifted, sometimes attacking him.
            _And then, at last, he had reached the real world – the world he had created, where he was God and could create or destroy whatever he wished.
            _He was supremely powerful. He told planets to destroy themselves, and they did. He created suns. Beautiful women flocked to be his. Of all men, he was the mightiest. Of all gods, he was the greatest."

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by LEtranger
              Betty Page! Goodness, I had forgotten about that icon of , er, what exactly again?
              Great hair. The single coolest hair-style in the history of follicles, with Veronica Lake and Amأ©lie coming joint second. Fact.

              It's just that I've been buying tattoo magazines recently (for research, honest!) and every other model seems to have either the bangs (fringe) or a tattoo of Page... while the woman herself doesn't get a nickel for any of it. But as Mike suggested (when I last dragged a thread off-topic with a reference to Bettie :oops: ) she barely got paid for the actual photographs, so why expect any money from the images based on those photographs? Still, I think it's a shame, personally.

              Originally posted by LEtranger
              You in particular will know how many artists, not only photographers she has inspired, amazing:
              Ah yes. Actually, the first time I became aware of her, was from reading an issue of a comix anthology called A1 which featured a gallery of Bettie images drawn by various artists. Some realistic, some cartoon-y, but the fringe endured!

              None of which really has anything to do with Mike's intellectual property. I really must stop doing this. :(
              "That which does not kill us, makes us stranger." - Trevor Goodchild

              Comment


              • #8
                You'd be surprised how much Mike is interested in the icons of our times, we talked a lot about such things, though more in the context of Fasc.ism.
                The disowning of one's own image is a very interesting theme (see how many use Chaplin, and his "tramp" in particular for whatever purpose).
                I also suspect there's a fascinating real story behind her and her disappearance. Hmmm ...
                Funny you should mention Veronica Lake ! My mum resembled her much, even wore her hair like her, but completely unaware of the British actress as her films weren't shown in Nazi Germany. Only later in the British Occupation Zone, when British and Canadian soldiers called her "Veronica" did she find out. Veronica Lake, it was said, was at some point elected the "Woman most people would like to have as their SISTER" !
                Google ergo sum

                Comment


                • #9
                  I was very fond of Veronica Lake and would have been upset if I'd met her and she'd been MY sister! Didn't she disappear into obscurity. A woman tiny enough to star with Alan Ladd, I know. I heard she 'went back to waiting tables' but have no idea if that was just a general part of a Hollywood legend.
                  I suppose I should have trademarked all that stuff, but like most of my contempories the idea never occurred to me. I have some general trademarks which do cover the Chaos Symbol as well as other stuff like that, but it's a bore to pursue the people who rip you off. It's the price you pay (like Tolkien, in fact) for being one of the first in your field. The stuff gets into the common consciousness. Flattery in one way.
                  I know we were speaking of David Gemmell in one of these threads. I just noticed his latest novel is (wait for it, wait for it) The Hawk Eternal.
                  Now there's someone who HAS to be consciously recycling my various titles. I feel towards him the way I feel towards someone you find pinching your stuff who nods and grins and just goes right on putting your cash in his pocket. Jaw dropping! It's hard to describe the kind of contempt I feel for such people. Warhammer, however, are the ace rippers off of all time. A commercial outfit who have exploited the work of many writers. You could probably find other threads here which go into details regarding the authors they've directly ripped off.

                  Pre-order or Buy my latest titles in Europe:
                  The Whispering Swarm: Book One of the Sanctuary of the White Friars - The Laughter of Carthage - Byzantium Endures - London Peculiar and Other Nonfiction
                  Doctor Who: The Coming of the Terraphiles - Kizuna: Fiction for Japan - Modem Times 2.0 - The Sunday Books - The Sundered Worlds


                  Pre-order or Buy my latest titles in the USA:
                  The Laughter of Carthage - Byzantium Endures - London Peculiar and Other Nonfiction - The Sunday Books - Doctor Who: The Coming of the Terraphiles
                  Kizuna: Fiction for Japan - The Sundered Worlds - The Winds of Limbo - Modem Times 2.0 - Elric: Swords and Roses

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Michael Moorcock
                    I was very fond of Veronica Lake and would have been upset if I'd met her and she'd been MY sister! Didn't she disappear into obscurity. A woman tiny enough to star with Alan Ladd, I know. I heard she 'went back to waiting tables' but have no idea if that was just a general part of a Hollywood legend.
                    I suppose I should have trademarked all that stuff, but like most of my contempories the idea never occurred to me. I have some general trademarks which do cover the Chaos Symbol as well as other stuff like that, but it's a bore to pursue the people who rip you off. It's the price you pay (like Tolkien, in fact) for being one of the first in your field. The stuff gets into the common consciousness. Flattery in one way.
                    I know we were speaking of David Gemmell in one of these threads. I just noticed his latest novel is (wait for it, wait for it) The Hawk Eternal.
                    Now there's someone who HAS to be consciously recycling my various titles. I feel towards him the way I feel towards someone you find pinching your stuff who nods and grins and just goes right on putting your cash in his pocket. Jaw dropping! It's hard to describe the kind of contempt I feel for such people. Warhammer, however, are the ace rippers off of all time. A commercial outfit who have exploited the work of many writers. You could probably find other threads here which go into details regarding the authors they've directly ripped off.
                    Mike, Dee and I were talking about Betty Page who disappeared, and about icons ...
                    Google ergo sum

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by DeeCrowSeer
                      Great hair. The single coolest hair-style in the history of follicles, with Veronica Lake and Amأ©lie coming joint second. Fact.
                      I have to confess a preference for Louise Brooks' bob myself.



                      Brooks was another icon who vanished from public view at the height of her fame only to resurface many decades later. Her book Lulu in Hollywood demonstrated that she was a fine writer as well as a beautiful and talented actress.
                      _"For an eternity Allard was alone in an icy limbo where all the colours were bright and sharp and comfortless.
                      _For another eternity Allard swam through seas without end, all green and cool and deep, where distorted creatures drifted, sometimes attacking him.
                      _And then, at last, he had reached the real world – the world he had created, where he was God and could create or destroy whatever he wished.
                      _He was supremely powerful. He told planets to destroy themselves, and they did. He created suns. Beautiful women flocked to be his. Of all men, he was the mightiest. Of all gods, he was the greatest."

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Michael Moorcock
                        Warhammer, however, are the ace rippers off of all time. A commercial outfit who have exploited the work of many writers. You could probably find other threads here which go into details regarding the authors they've directly ripped off.
                        Warhammer is to minature gaming what Magic the Gathering is to card games - a melange of ripped of ideas :(

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I'm convinced that R.A. Salvatore has based his career on a hero whose appearance, behavior, and attitudes he nicked. For example, one of the defining characteristics of Drizzt is his expert wielding of two scimitars, and the sense of him being devastatingly undefeatable with these weapons. The first book in that series, The Crystal Shard, debuted when the ITV series Robin of Sherwood was on the air in the UK (this program aired in the US on the cable channel Showtime). In Robin of Sherwood, there was a Saracen character named Nasir who fought with two scimitars with a devastating, seemingly undefeatable skill.

                          Pics of Nasir:

                          http://kreative.many-paths.net/darkover/nasir029.jpg

                          http://www.amberskys-world.de/ros/Gr...ies/nasir3.jpg

                          http://www.amberskys-world.de/ros/Gr...ies/nasir4.jpg

                          Unless, of course, Nasir was a copy of an earlier character I'm not familiar with. :oops:

                          I had always wondered since the late 80's if the comic book writer Mike Grell was also influenced by that show, when he got rid of Green Arrow's hat and replaced it with a hood, and included Herne the Hunter in a few issues, and it seems my suspicion may be confirmed, as I just found a site where the actor who played Nasir details his collaborations with Grell:

                          http://www.boldoutlaw.com/robint/ryan1.html

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Well that's generification for you. When I first started doing Elric stories, for instance, the publisher didn't know what to call the stuff. People were still wondering if Tolkien was post-nuclear-holocaust fiction and essentially there WAS no genre. That is Dunsany, Howard, Leiber and Co were all regarded as individual writers who wrote a quirky kind of fantasy.
                            People who liked it, liked it all to some degree or another. Now, as with all the various kinds of science fiction, there are whole sub-genres serving entire audiences. So if you were an early writer of fantasy, especially if you were exposed to a large audience as were Tolkien and me in the UK and also Howard in the US, I suppose a lot of your original ideas are going to turn up as generic tropes. It's disconcerting, as I've said in the past, because what you regard as your individual tool-kit suddenly becomes the common tool-kit. Of course, D&D, Warhammer and other products are the commercial end of the phenomenon. Tolkien was astonished by his success as, indeed, was I. Until the early sixties it was hard to get such material published at all. Don Wollheim's pirating of the first volume of Tolkien and Burroughs's Princess of Mars, plus Lancer deciding to do first Jack Vance and then me was the start of what is now, of course, a massive industry. That some parts of that industry remain original and that the majority are simply a melange of influences is a natural enough outcome. What I object to is the trademarking of my ideas and images, just as I find it extremely naff of Toy Vault, for instance, to trademark the name Bast. It's a wonder someone hasn't trademarked the name Jehovah yet and started charging Bible publishers for the privilege of using the name. I hope Bast finds 'em and does what she does best to those who invite her displeasure.

                            Pre-order or Buy my latest titles in Europe:
                            The Whispering Swarm: Book One of the Sanctuary of the White Friars - The Laughter of Carthage - Byzantium Endures - London Peculiar and Other Nonfiction
                            Doctor Who: The Coming of the Terraphiles - Kizuna: Fiction for Japan - Modem Times 2.0 - The Sunday Books - The Sundered Worlds


                            Pre-order or Buy my latest titles in the USA:
                            The Laughter of Carthage - Byzantium Endures - London Peculiar and Other Nonfiction - The Sunday Books - Doctor Who: The Coming of the Terraphiles
                            Kizuna: Fiction for Japan - The Sundered Worlds - The Winds of Limbo - Modem Times 2.0 - Elric: Swords and Roses

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Michael Moorcock
                              ... It's a wonder someone hasn't trademarked the name Jehovah yet and started charging Bible publishers for the privilege of using the name. ...
                              Stoning would be too good for them!

                              Ciao,
                              Ant

                              Comment

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