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**David Mosley** · 09-17-2005, 12:19 PM

Re: Wizards of the Coast Lifting Moorcock's multiverse?

Originally posted by Berry Sizemore

Ravnica: City of Guilds is set in an exotic new location in the Multiverse and will introduce a new storyline, striking creatures, and innovative game mechanics. Ravnica features 306 black-bordered cards, available in standard and foil versions.

I don't know for certain, but this sounds a little like a re-vamping of the old 'Planescape' environment that TSR devised before they were swallowed by by WotC. Although Planescape eventually got phased out (aiui) in favour of more traditional RPG worlds, it did give rise to one of the greatest CRPGs (Computer Role-Playing Games) ever imo - Planescape: Torment.

Had WotC kept the term 'the Planescape' in preference to 'the Multiverse' I don't suppose we'd be having this conversation. ;)

**Miqque** · 09-17-2005, 12:39 PM

Sounds dodgy. Oh, well. No doubt it was an aspect destroyed!
:twisted:

**Oren** · 09-17-2005, 01:31 PM

Personally, I don't see much wrong in what Wizards of the Coast are currently doing, but a mention of Moorcock in some of their publications seems to be due.

While "Manual of the Planes" tries to map a cosmos with multiple planes of existence, its mapping does not resemble the multiverse described in Mike's books (which is much less "mapped").

I still remember that in the first edition AD&D Player's Handbook (from the 70s) Gary Gygax listed several Moorcock books in the list of recommended readings in the appendices :)

I also remember the Melnibonأ©an mythos being part of the Deities & Demigods manual for the original AD&D. This mythos section (along with the Cthulhu one) was later removed from the book because of some copyright infringements. Mike, do you know more about this? I supposed there's a story behind it. Was it Chaosium who demanded this section to be removed?

**David Mosley** · 09-17-2005, 02:14 PM

Originally posted by Oren Douek

I also remember the Melnibonأ©an mythos being part of the Deities & Demigods manual for the original AD&D. This mythos section (along with the Cthulhu one) was later removed from the book because of some copyright infringements. Mike, do you know more about this? I supposed there's a story behind it. Was it Chaosium who demanded this section to be removed?

Oren, you might find some answers in this thread > [broken link]

**Oren** · 09-17-2005, 03:31 PM

Originally posted by demos99

Originally posted by Oren Douek

I also remember the Melnibonأ©an mythos being part of the Deities & Demigods manual for the original AD&D. This mythos section (along with the Cthulhu one) was later removed from the book because of some copyright infringements. Mike, do you know more about this? I supposed there's a story behind it. Was it Chaosium who demanded this section to be removed?

Oren, you might find some answers in this thread > [broken link]

Thanks! And that link leads to [broken link] which pretty much tells the entire story :)

**Michael Moorcock** · 09-17-2005, 04:40 PM

My only beef is with Chaosium, still! The idea of alternate worlds isn't my invention, just the multiverse and how it's structured, which is closer to the way modern theoretical physics sees it today. I just happened to hit on the idea a bit early.

**DeepFixer** · 09-17-2005, 06:29 PM

Re: Wizards of the Coast Lifting Moorcock's multiverse?

Originally posted by demos99

I don't know for certain, but this sounds a little like a re-vamping of the old 'Planescape' environment that TSR devised before they were swallowed by by WotC.

Actually, the 'Manual of the Planes' existed long before the 'Planescape' stuff.

It was published late in the 1st Edition days. Was just a detailed listing of the planes available to the AD&D worlds: Seven Heavens, Happy Hunting Ground, Nine Hells, The Abyss, The Elemental Planes, etc.

The only real Moorcock reference was in the Deiites & Demi-Gods editions that had the Melnibonean Mythos included.

Though, I think D&DG also used 'The Multiverse' on one of their diagrams in the back.

**McTalbayne** · 09-17-2005, 10:52 PM

A lot of Companys are using the term "Multiverse" in regards to their collection of universes. DC and Marvel both have used it recently.

**Grey Mouser** · 09-18-2005, 03:11 AM

I'm not familiar with WotC's new version but from a quick survey, as Demos and McTalbayne have noted, it looks like they are using the term multiverse as a generic term to describe a revamped version of the latest incarnation of the standard multi-plannar environment for D+D. The original version of this was an extension of the original D+D alignment system, with it's nine derived alignment stereotypes, which owed for inspiration it's Law/Chaos axis to Mike's early work (with possibly some influence from Poul Anderson).

I dug out my copy of the old AD+D Dungeon Master's guide from 1979. The following is excerpted from the writer Gary Gygax's Inspirational Reading section in one of the appendices, after a list of recommended inspirational reading, which includes Mike's name as well as that of Poul Anderson, Tolkein and many others:

Originally posted by Gary Gygax

The most immediate influences upon AD+D were probably de Camp & Pratt, REH, Fritz Leiber, Jack Vance, HPL, and A. Merritt: but all of the above authors, as well as many not listed, certainly helped to shape the form of the game

So I believe that Mike's work did influence the D+D planar environment (as did more traditional mythology), but at a much earlier stage back in the late 70's. I think it's more of a case of some stuff that Mike put into the pot back then, re Law/Chaos and sentient swords and artifacts etc, getting into the mix.

So just as Tolkein's influence provided D+D with some of it's racial archetypes, I've a strong hunch that Mike's early work provided D+D with the inspiration for some of it's alignment archetypes (along the Law/Chaos axis) and therefore some of the planar environments that were derived from that.

PS Demos, I have to agree re the Planescape stuff. A sophisticated CRPG like PT is going to be very hard to beat.

**lemec** · 09-18-2005, 10:02 PM

Gary Gygax wrote about the different planes in his Gord the Rogue books too,mostly the abyss though. There was some kind of shadow realm there also if I remember right.

If Mike says it is ok for them to use it, it is fine by me too! haha :)

Is the artwork on the back cover of the first edition Dungeon Master's Guide the city of Immyr? I heard somone say it was because of the pastel colours of all the buildings in the painting.

**DeepFixer** · 09-19-2005, 03:18 PM

Originally posted by lemec

Is the artwork on the back cover of the first edition Dungeon Master's Guide the city of Immyr? I heard somone say it was because of the pastel colours of all the buildings in the painting.

I think it's supposed to be The City of Brass, in the Elemental Plane of Fire, and the big red critter is an Efreet.

As I recall, there's a caption on one of the front end pages that states that.

Even the later editions that had the Jeff Easley painting 'Abandon Hope . . .' (the robed guy opening the Massive Doors) have that caption on the page.

**Grey Mouser** · 09-19-2005, 03:49 PM

Deepfixer is correct. On the back page illustration, the city floats on a cloud above a red burning sea. The buildings are various shades of amber, brass, yellow etc and the style of architecture is a kind of combo between Arabian and Aztec. The only really pastel colour is the sky, which is a kind of pastel green.

**lemec** · 09-19-2005, 08:27 PM

Ahh, cool. It's been awhile since I looked at the DM's guide. Thanks for all the information.

**Old Vig** · 09-20-2005, 04:08 AM

I am a magic player, but I was a Moorcock reader first (I do own the old D&D manuals with Moorcock and Lovecraft entries 8) Terming 'Dominia' a multiverse is cheeky, but then it is such an apt word.

MtG is such a success that WotC have hordes of employees working at the design, art, supporting novels and marketing of the game. I've only read one MtG novel, and I'm in no hurry to read any more. I don't think Michael is under threat there.

In the game WotC distinguish 'flavor' from mechanics, and both at times are Moorcockian. The flavour is what distinguishes one plane from another, but each borrows from familiar fantasy archetypes (dragons, warriors, gods, spirits, swordplay, spells). At times this can seem Melnibonean, but you can also see Sinbad, Slaine, Kurosawa etc.

The mechanics are where things are closest. Instead of Chaos, Law and Balance, MtG is polarised into Red, Green, Blue, White, Black and Artifact (the 6th colour). WotC use a 'color wheel' to define the attitudes, psychology and abilities associated with each colour. Red is pretty chaotic, White is lawful, while Green closely embodies nature, harmony and the spirit plane. Control, aggression, evasion and other properties are distributed around the wheel. You have legends which are typically granted higher powers. Players are represented in a game by a life total, and the unique decks they construct act as their agents. There are often ways to bring in support from outside the game, seem familiar?

I could probably go on making parallels all day, but when it comes down to it I think MtG is more fantasy genre than Moorcock bootleg. I know they've also made an effort to distance their flavour from both copyright work and from real life material - I guess a lot of those WotC guys must be lawyers

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