Announcement

Collapse

Welcome to Moorcock's Miscellany

Dear reader,

Many people have given their valuable time to create a website for the pleasure of posing questions to Michael Moorcock, meeting people from around the world, and mining the site for information. Please follow one of the links above to learn more about the site.

Thank you,
Reinart der Fuchs
See more
See less

Moorcock & Religion ?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #91
    I write this post with some trepidation, not wanting to stir up heated debate!

    Mike, I have been searching this site trying to find clues whether you would decribe yourself as an agnostic or a true athiest.

    I found your views on the politics of religious institutions easy enough which I entirely sympathise with.

    I also recall that you have said something like "we come from nothing, we live for a while, and then we die, the end. Which I guess ends any debate on your views of a heaven or eternal after life. After much thought and meditation I have also come to this cruel conclusion.

    The only thing remaining is whether you might believe in an intelligent creative force or God. Einstein apparently thought there was a spiritual force in the Universe:

    "Einstein experts say the letter supports the argument that the physicist held complex, agnostic views on religion. He rejected organized faith but often spoke of a spiritual force at work in the universe."
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080516/...instein_letter


    An interesting list of athiests and agnostics has been draw up:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_atheists
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_agnostics
    Would you be able to chose either of these lists or is that catagorisation too simple?

    You have been quoted here:
    http://www.unfacts.org/archive/philo...nAtheists.html

    The sentient may perceive and love the universe, but the universe may not perceive and love the sentient. The universe sees no distinction between the multitude of creatures and elements which comprise it. All are equal. None is favored. The universe, equipped with nothing but the materials and the power of creation, continues to create: something of this, something of that. It cannot control what it creates and it cannot, it seems, be controlled by its creations (though a few might deceive themselves otherwise). Those who curse the workings of the universe curse that which is deaf. Those who strike out at those workings fight that which is inviolate. Those who shake their fists, shake their fists at blind stars. - Michael Moorcock


    However, I am not convinced that you have given up entirely on the notion of a Creator. I also sometimes have doubts on atheism.
    Last edited by Tales from Tanelorn; 05-18-2008, 07:06 AM.

    Comment


    • #92
      TfT,

      In a relatively recent (past 6 mo.?) post, Mike described himself as Atheist, Agnostic, and hopeful, and said he has always been all three. I'll try and track it down for you.
      Ani Maamin B'emunah Sh'leimah B'viyat Hamashiach. V'af al pi sheyitmahmehah im kol zeh achake lo b'chol yom sheyavo.

      "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." - Phillip K. Dick

      Comment


      • #93
        Thanks Kyrinn..

        OT.. I just was going through some boxes that somehow were discovered out of nowhere from boxes that appeared in Wales and later in Vancouver and low and behold a pristine copy of Epic Pooh appeared amongst some papers.
        I couldnt believe my eyes, it was not in my Moorcock book collection (which is actually in danger of being lost due to a house sale in Wales...)

        Anyways inside it reads for Brian Tawn with love from Mike March 6th 1978.
        I think this was a gift from Brian and must date from the time in the winter of 1978 that I turned up at his house out of the blue asking if he was Brian?
        (we exchanged mails many times)

        Books apparently can weave an incredible entwined fate and journey, mirroring our lives it seems.
        Perhaps a great story for a book, the story of a book!
        Last edited by Tales from Tanelorn; 05-18-2008, 07:32 AM.

        Comment


        • #94
          Wow, what a terrifically difficult job this one is.
          I'm usually right on it. I'll keep looking.

          > hugs TfT <
          Ani Maamin B'emunah Sh'leimah B'viyat Hamashiach. V'af al pi sheyitmahmehah im kol zeh achake lo b'chol yom sheyavo.

          "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." - Phillip K. Dick

          Comment


          • #95
            Thanks Kyrinn, I also found this by Mike and I think I agree with his sentiments:

            I, too, find good Anglican services comforting and like to listen to Choral Evensong on the radio. I also used to attend Choral Evenson in Oxford and at St Martin's in London (mainly). I find the same kind of consolation in Islam, in giving up one's self to God, and I love Jewish services. However, while it is a profound pleasure to take the occasional pipe of opium, as it were, it is a serious mistake to become addicted to that pleasure, however profound. Regular attendance of organised religious ceremonies can in my view readily be seen as an addiction, if you like, to the opium of the people. Adherence to a party line can amount to the same thing.
            A slightly different argument:
            Those who boast of their patriotism or their loyalty to an institution are essentially declaring themselves unthinking addicts. Flag-wavers, moreover, like fish-fanatics are the least trustworthy 'believers' because those who have to keep announcing their faith probably aren't too faithful anyway, when push comes to shove. You can't trust junkies, except maybe to do anything for a fix. I feel sorry for people who are addicted to 'faith' but I'm more inclined to respect those who aren't forever declaring it.
            Another thought:
            The evangelical churches in the US are organised very much along the lines of the old communist party, with party lines being published for ministers to read out every Sunday from sea to shining sea and very similar social institutions in place, including versions of the Young Pioneers (Nazi Youth, Boy Scouts -- I'm not otherwise linking them!) whose job is to indoctrinate other young people (cf Jesuits 'give me a child'). Ministers who veer from the party (Southern Baptist Convention) line are often treated with extraordinary cruelty as I know from experience. I married, after all, into a family of Baptists (Linda's relatives, not Linda) and while some of them are people of extraordinary generosity of spirit I sometimes mourn that so much of that generosity is wasted in supporting what is essentially a political institution.
            I'm not sure that the discovery of bags of bones is going to alter the so-called 'faith' of those already indoctrinated. It is only the questioners in this society, people with curiosity, who will find the discovery significant and they are already free-thinkers, I'm sure.

            Comment


            • #96
              No KoolAid here, buddy-

              Tales,

              I don't think any of that is a news flash to any of us here, though. There's no building nor house-congregation that'd take me in (though forming a Witches' coven sounds pretty interesting. They get to play with swords, after all).

              Is there a sudden timeliness in your experience that you thought these needed to be collected in a new post? I'm not needling you, just curious why you suddenly returned to the site to sing your favorite hymn.

              I've said it before, and not I alone, that it appears your religion is that of faithlessness, and the message that you constantly evangelise us with is that organised religion is a bad thing. We know. How bad it is, or for whom, and when, however, is something that I don't think we've been convinced of yet.

              Did some spooky door-to-door MormoWatchXian-Goblins come and bug you while you were on hiatus from the site? Need me to scare 'em off for ya'? When they see my 'shrine' to the triple-'goddess' along with my Menorah, it really flips them out.

              Pull up a chair and talk to me, Tales, will ya'?
              > conjures a frosty beverage for my friend <
              Ani Maamin B'emunah Sh'leimah B'viyat Hamashiach. V'af al pi sheyitmahmehah im kol zeh achake lo b'chol yom sheyavo.

              "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." - Phillip K. Dick

              Comment


              • #97
                Gadzooks! this is an old thread... who bumped it?

                Comment


                • #98
                  Tales, who has highly edited his original post to include recent postings by others.
                  Ani Maamin B'emunah Sh'leimah B'viyat Hamashiach. V'af al pi sheyitmahmehah im kol zeh achake lo b'chol yom sheyavo.

                  "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." - Phillip K. Dick

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    I'm reading Blood right now.

                    Part 4, Chapter 22 is pretty powerful, in its way. Of course, whether Mike believes what he wrote or whether its just the setting for the world only he can say, but he sets a rather definite theme for creation and epistimology. Forgive me for not quoting the chapter, as it's kind of long. Suffice it to say, I think it probably really does gave an insight into what Mike believes, even if its not his belief in its entirety.

                    Of course, at the end of the day it doesn't really matter what we believe, unless you believe that majority opinion creates reality. If there is no God, then all us theists will have been wrong. If there is one, then all the atheists will have been wrong. Debate only seems to matter if my belief creates him. Otherwise, its just endless pontification. Let the theists congregate in their enclaves, and don't force the atheists to attend, and everyone should be happy, right?

                    I don't understand why belief in God is so offensive to some. I've no desire to convert anyone who doesn't want to believe in God.
                    "Self-discipline and self-knowledge are the key. An individual becomes a unique universe, able to move at will through all the scales of the multiverse - potentially able to control the immediate reality of every scale, every encountered environment."
                    --Contessa Rose von Bek, Blood part 4, chapter 12

                    Comment


                    • I'll become an atheist if the argument demands it but truly I'm probably agnostic. I might even be a theist, but a God who created the multiverse (which I consider as likely to exist as God) must be a pretty unknowable force. I believe in a God of love. Unfortunately, I have yet to see much proof that such a God exists.

                      That said, my experience has not been dissimilar to Marie Bernadette's. I climbed mountains to get that sense of divine order. I believe everything is interdependent, too -- life and death, good and evil and so on -- you can't have one without the other. I think it's possible the great clockmaker created the whole shebang as a self-sustaining system. Of course, I've also had all these conventionally Christian visions and put them down to sleep-deprivation and other causes. I always take my own mind's creations with a pinch of salt. I am certainly a liberal humanist and there's a faith requiring rigorous practice which doesn't mean you have to waste brain-power wondering how Christians could rise so readily to the slaughtering of others. At least you knew an Old Testament God had no hesitation about sending His chosen people to get in there and murder a few thousand babies or do a bit of genocide. Maybe that's why so many American Christians are really old-fashioned Jews in disguise. Is there a text which says slaughtering Indians is the right and proper thing to do ? Maybe Chinese Gordon wrote something which would help ?
                      Last edited by Michael Moorcock; 05-19-2008, 11:56 AM.

                      Pre-order or Buy my latest titles in Europe:
                      The Whispering Swarm: Book One of the Sanctuary of the White Friars - The Laughter of Carthage - Byzantium Endures - London Peculiar and Other Nonfiction
                      Doctor Who: The Coming of the Terraphiles - Kizuna: Fiction for Japan - Modem Times 2.0 - The Sunday Books - The Sundered Worlds


                      Pre-order or Buy my latest titles in the USA:
                      The Laughter of Carthage - Byzantium Endures - London Peculiar and Other Nonfiction - The Sunday Books - Doctor Who: The Coming of the Terraphiles
                      Kizuna: Fiction for Japan - The Sundered Worlds - The Winds of Limbo - Modem Times 2.0 - Elric: Swords and Roses

                      Comment


                      • Okay, here it goes...

                        Mike, et al.,


                        The bible of the Christians (TaNaKh + the Apostolic Epistles and the Revelation) really only makes any sense if certain core concepts (rarely preached in total by any of the faith traditions associated with the collected book) are kept in mind. That isn’t to say that the General Truths aren’t applicable to all of humanity, but rather that the Specific Truths (namely that the documents speak to the Jewish people and experience) require foundational belief. I will, with all humility, now endeavour to delineate these as best I understand them. I hope that I neither seem patronising, nor preachy.

                        1). G-d IS. Present continuous. This point is vital for the link between Creator and creation, as well as the stated Incarnation and the qualitative new creation(s) effected through said visitation.

                        2). The ‘mystery of the ages’ revealed in Paul’s letter to the congregation in Ephesus is that the totality of human experience is a lesson to the angelic host, both elect, and fallen.

                        3). The ‘sons of the gods’ begetting offspring was an actual event-complex that dramatically influenced the nature of the earth, its animal and human population, and gave rise to aberrations which, of necessity, were eradicated so as to preserve the human gene pool. For, without a pure human gene pool, the Redeemer could not effect re-possession of creation to the dominion of humanity from the hands of the fallen host to which it had been transferred in the garden. That this inhuman begetting is still in effect ties in to folkloric tales of fae births, and in modern days, alien abduction for purposes of creating hybrids.

                        4). The once-corrupted world was put back into the hands of humanity after the survivors re-settled the earth for the purpose of maintaining it (ecologically speaking), as well as safeguarding it from the usurpers. Once this task was placed to human charge, the battle which has spread to all corners of the globe, in all ages and cultures was begun. The TaNaKh only concerns itself with one particular point of view, namely the synthetic nation of Jews. As such, the events transpiring among the gentiles out of whom the Jews were taken for their specific ‘burden’ of witness is not addressed in General Truths again until the Apostolic age.

                        5). The invisible, spiritual realm IS. Acceptance of it must stem from belief in an invisible, omnipresent, transcendent Creator, and the hierarchy of ‘messengers’, both elect and fallen. The messages of the Creator are likened to wave-forms in the medium of reality, and yet, they are personified as individual, named entities. These Messengers operate in the machine of creation, and are as much functions as they are persons. By incarnating through the breaching of the veil, from pure spirit to material reality of quantum nature, these were able to effect offspring that were endowed with transhuman qualities. Apparently, they were used for the embodiment of said spiritual creatures into the material realm; first in an attempt to completely derail the future incarnation of the Redeemer, and after the deluge, to act upon the human population as oppressors, adversaries, and destroyers, toward the goal of preventing the incarnation.

                        6). Within the PoV of the Jewish experience (as the line from which the redeemer flowed, protected through specific inter-clan marriage and begetting) the inhabitants of Canaan (descendants of Lot (Abram’s cousin), specifically Amon and Moab, and the other tribes that were virtually entirely Hybrid (Nephilim, or Fallen Ones [though also lending itself to Ones of great health]) in genealogy) were given the opportunity over 40 generations (in standard measure, 1600 years) to prove their common humanity while the pre-incarnate Redeemer operated in the region under the name Melchizedek (King of Righteousness), from his throne in Jeru Shalom (City of Peace). The hardness of their hearts likely flowed from their inhuman derivation, and ultimately bore the ultimate testimony of their antipathy for the Redemption plan affected from the beginning (the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the cosmos) [remember this whole cycle is a lesson to the Host]. These were unrepentant incarnates of the fallen host, and although ensheathed in flesh and blood bodies, capable of procreation amongst themselves as well as the humans from which the germ of their tissues were taken, they were not Human. It is a spiritual distinction, manifest in material form. These creatures, then, were the ones who were given up to Hormah (utter ruination), and yet, some of these tribes and clans were given the opportunity to repent and join with Israel in the (continued) habitation of the land described as so bountiful to be ‘overflowing with milk and honey’. Careful reading will indicate that a few (primarily individuals, such as Rahab the Moabitess [cousin to Abraham through Lot’s offspring] of Jericho and her family) were able to decide thus. Indeed, Israel failed to completely eradicate these hybrids, which later plagued them for the full course of their existence in the region.

                        7). Meanwhile, the Gentiles (all Humans are related through father Noah, whose ‘generations were perfect’ [whose genetics were wholly pure] the same root word is used later to describe the requirements for the Peshach lamb) from landfall, to Scattering at Babel and the separation of the continents [‘In Peleg’s days the world was divided’], and their forced migration to disperse the Human seed to reduce the likelihood of complete domination by the post-diluvial Hybrids, is seen in the folkloric tales of heroes who triumph over Titans and Monsters alike. One branch that has great importance to the Jewish experience are the sons (descendants) of Javan, from whom a great number of Mediterranean folk are derived, specifically those who would be known as the Hellenic Greeks, who later dominate Israel (recorded in the the Maccabean reinstitution of the Aaronic priesthood and the other sacred duties of the Levitical practices of Mosaic Law, perverted by the slaughtering of a pig upon the altar of G-d by Antiochus Epiphanes to his god, Zeus-Epiphanes ‘god-revealed’ [elevating himself to the role of the senior deity]). This then sets the stage for Rome’s early alliance with Israel to remove the threat of Sparta.
                        My glossing over the ‘second exodus’ into Babylon and the intermingling of beliefs that would later form the core of Zoharic teachings, as well as the Medeo-Persian era of domination (Daniel bridging the Babylonian and Medeo-Persian eras), as well as the recovery of Jerusalem (wall-mending/building, etc.) is not to slight the importance, but to speed the presentation.

                        8). With Israel, once again having given itself over to Gentile assistance and thus domination, the stage was set for the Incarnation (may my brothers and sisters of ‘mainline’ Judaic faith bear with me in this matter. I will endeavour to find the list of contemporary Rabinim who feared that the Moschiach had been ‘overlooked’ by the time of Jerusalem’s destruction in 70CE. I grant you that the list is small, but it exists, nonetheless. No antagonism is intended in this matter) of the Redeemer.

                        9). If one accepts Jesus to be the Anointed Redeemer, (Yeshua HaMoschiach), then the spiritual premises of the new creations (regenerate Humans restored to the family of G-d) necessitate belief in the upswing in the counter-force of the spiritual and incarnate enemy host, and their maltreated flock of unregenerate Humans from the Atonement until today. So, for every gain in Human Rights afforded through the re-establishment of what the Buddhists call the Noble Eightfold Path (Right-: view, intention, speech, action, livelihood, effort, mindfulness, and concentration), the ill-begotten must rise to the occasion and despoil more. While it may be seen as an attempt to explain-away human culpability, that is far from the case, as the spiritual wound would already be ‘enough’ of a hobble (Original Sin for those in the Christian community, or the Evil Impulse of Rabbinic teachings [Talmud and Midrash]).

                        10). Just as Antiochus Epiphanes is a type of gentile oppressor and enemy of G-d, he foreshadows a later covenant-breaker, who is termed the Antichrist by the Apostles Peter and Paul (Shaul of Tarsus), whose primary goal is the destruction of as many of the Jews, and other adherents of G-d’s word. It is said in Daniel, as well as the Apostolic writings, and the Revelation that in the days the ‘the Son of Perdition’ is revealed, ‘no flesh should survive, unless the length of those days are shortened, for the elect’s sake.’ This, once again, primarily concerns the Jews, within Israel, though those who hold fast to the testimony of Messiah, unto death are also in view.

                        It is a bloody struggle for the entire species of the one race of Humanity against usurpers of inhuman derivation. This plague has known no bounds. No ethnicity is immune. That is the primary reason so much evil has been propagated throughout the ages, and why in that one series of records we call the Bible, which focuses on the synthetic nation of Israel, it is filled with wars, genocides (on both sides of the conflict), and teachers of wickedness masquerading as the righteous.

                        I realise this is considered a radical understanding, but it is the only one I have found that synchronises with all of the elements described within those accepted records of Canon, as well as general folkloric history of Humanity’s struggles from its inception – however long ago that may have been.
                        There are other details which I have refrained from adding, namely the Leviathan/Tiamat aspect of the antediluvian world, and the scope and extent of the deluge, but I felt those would divert from the main premise which was to put the slaughters into a context.

                        This in no way gives credence to the genocides perpetuated upon indigenous peoples outside of the metahistoric Judaic conflict, but serves to illustrate the general battlefield and its terrible cost in flesh and blood.

                        --Kyrinn
                        Last edited by Kyrinn S. Eis; 05-20-2008, 10:08 AM. Reason: textual errors; clarifications; spellin mishtaxe
                        Ani Maamin B'emunah Sh'leimah B'viyat Hamashiach. V'af al pi sheyitmahmehah im kol zeh achake lo b'chol yom sheyavo.

                        "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." - Phillip K. Dick

                        Comment


                        • I almost felt like pressing "quote" there Kyrinn, just to see if the system could take it! A very interesting post: so much so I broke a typical rule never to read posts more than 3 paras long! I suspect I'll need to read it a few times to just get the overall picture, let alone an attempt at understanding.

                          From my own Christian PoV, I consider only the Gospels of Christ to have direct countenance: the rest of the bible is, for me, context. Paul for example may well be a dude, but I don't agree with everything he said and I feel no need to. Frankly, I think of Christ's main message as "the laws are no longer enough: you must determine your own morality and ethics in respect to your knowledge-of / relationship-with G-d". A sort of evolutionary spirituality as it were: not invalidating what went before, not absolute to what may come after. But that's just my interpretation, and given its very nature, not one I tend to bandy around.

                          Comment


                          • No time for a full reply now, but I agree with Mike, when I do believe in God, he is a God of LOVE and tolerance and forgiveness and not attached to any denomination.

                            I can still only see relatively simple, random, Physics processes at work in the Physical Universe from creation until far in the future, with complex multicellular Life here on earth and elsewhere being the crowning achievement in complexity in the Physical universe.
                            Last edited by Tales from Tanelorn; 05-20-2008, 03:00 AM.

                            Comment


                            • Many thanks to Kyrinn for posting a most fascinating analysis of, I guess, Biblical history from the 'outside' POV rather than the normal perspective of Humanity. I'm going to have to re-read it to get the full gist, but from my first reading it certainly has some interesting insights.
                              _"For an eternity Allard was alone in an icy limbo where all the colours were bright and sharp and comfortless.
                              _For another eternity Allard swam through seas without end, all green and cool and deep, where distorted creatures drifted, sometimes attacking him.
                              _And then, at last, he had reached the real world – the world he had created, where he was God and could create or destroy whatever he wished.
                              _He was supremely powerful. He told planets to destroy themselves, and they did. He created suns. Beautiful women flocked to be his. Of all men, he was the mightiest. Of all gods, he was the greatest."

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Rothgo View Post
                                I almost felt like pressing "quote" there Kyrinn, just to see if the system could take it! A very interesting post: so much so I broke a typical rule never to read posts more than 3 paras long! I suspect I'll need to read it a few times to just get the overall picture, let alone an attempt at understanding.
                                I very much appreciate that you did, Rothgo. Thanks.

                                Originally posted by Rothgo View Post
                                From my own Christian PoV, I consider only the Gospels of Christ to have direct countenance: the rest of the bible is, for me, context. Paul for example may well be a dude, but I don't agree with everything he said and I feel no need to. Frankly, I think of Christ's main message as "the laws are no longer enough: you must determine your own morality and ethics in respect to your knowledge-of / relationship-with G-d". A sort of evolutionary spirituality as it were: not invalidating what went before, not absolute to what may come after. But that's just my interpretation, and given its very nature, not one I tend to bandy around.
                                I think that if a Christian were to only choose the Gospels, they wouldn't be worse-off for the choice. I can see how your understanding and Mike's writings dovetail very nicely, which is really cool. Are you a fan of Kierkegaard?
                                Ani Maamin B'emunah Sh'leimah B'viyat Hamashiach. V'af al pi sheyitmahmehah im kol zeh achake lo b'chol yom sheyavo.

                                "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." - Phillip K. Dick

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X