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  • #61
    208 ?!
    In free association ... does anybody remember silly old Radio Luxembourg ... "208 - People" .... early 1970's ???
    Google ergo sum

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    • #62
      Originally posted by TheAdlerian
      I was amazed to find a 208 (?) dollar fee needed to join the COS! Is that a magic number or something? Well, it's a magic number for someone's wallet, that's for sure!
      Lol...not that I know of. It sure has gone up in price though. It was only $100 in 1997. I never joined though, even when I considered myself a Satanist. I don't have money to spend on crap like that. In fact, most Satanists are probably not members of the CoS.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by LEtranger
        208 ?!
        In free association ... does anybody remember silly old Radio Luxembourg ... "208 - People" .... early 1970's ???
        Fabulous 208? :D

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        • #64
          Right! The "Tony Prince Show" ...
          Silly in retrospect, but it gave you a nice cuddly group-feeling in those days and 5% off prices in certain Carnaby Street shops.


          sorry to interrupt this interesting thread with old recollections
          Google ergo sum

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          • #65
            Danisty, my encounters with the current head of the Church of Satan lead me to believe that there is some non-atheistic occultism underlying things in the church these days. But that's not what they say. There's also an undercurrent of support for right-wing militaristic views and George W. I don't feel inclined to spend a lot of energy linking things to point out these observations, but they are out there, and those are the conclusions I came to.

            Your belief system does sound quite different, though I'm sure the fundies are every bit as scared of you. Perhaps moreso for the differences actually.
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            • #66
              Originally posted by Danisty
              I believe I've mentioned here before that I am a Luciferian. Luciferianism is not an organized religion and for the most part Luciferians don't even consider it a religion although it probably fits in the category in some ways. Since most of us stumble upon this path by ourselves, it is very diverse. I won't go into other Luciferians' beliefs unless you guys are interested.
              A fascinating topic, since I just encountered a chap online (a sometime listener to my online radio show) who is a Luciferian, and a member of the (apparently small) Church of Lucifer you mention later. Apparently, unlike the CoS, the CoL does not encourage (possibly refuses?) donations to itself.

              On the topic of Christ...I think he was an alright guy. I don't find anything wrong with the ideas he tried to teach. I also don't have any problems with Christians who actually try to follow his teachings. It is God that I have a problem with...not Jesus.
              Or, as my friends and I put it,

              "I have no problem with Jesus, it's his fan club I can't stand!" :D

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              • #67
                Your belief system does sound quite different, though I'm sure the fundies are every bit as scared of you. Perhaps moreso for the differences actually.
                Quite possible. Luciferians tend to do their research and many of them know more about the Bible than most Christians. Fundamentalists would have a hard time debating with a Luciferian, I think.

                Apparently, unlike the CoS, the CoL does not encourage (possibly refuses?) donations to itself.
                Interesting...that is not something I was aware of. My issues with the CoL stem from the fact that they are opposed to the Kabbalah. Many occultists of all backgrounds use the Kabbalah in their workings, so this, in my opinion, this implies a sort of anti-semitism. Actually, anti-semitism is very big in the occult, especially the LHP (left-hand path) and it really pisses me off. I am completely against racism, sexism, age-ism...just about all the -isms.

                "I have no problem with Jesus, it's his fan club I can't stand!"
                Yes, the fundies are very aggravating, but for me it's more than that. I actually do have a problem with God himself, but I'm not going to get into that arguement. What's really been making me mad lately are the atheists that on some sort of personal crusade to rid the world of religion all together. I can't believe how much they complained about Christmas trees this year. I'm not even Christian and I can't go a single year without a Christmas tree! It started as a pagan tradition anyway, so this leads me to believe that a lot of atheists are on the move against all religion...not just Christianity. Frankly, I think it stems from a bit of jealousy. They don't have any traditions of their own to celebrate, so they want everyone else not to celebrate as well. Of course, this isn't all atheists. A lot of them don't care either way. It's the fundamentalist atheists, I guess. What a weird concept!

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                • #68
                  If we got rid of everything bearing a 'religious taint' we would hardly have any traditions at all. While I can understand how the Confederate flag might offend black people (though not all the black people I know) and how it represents a challenge to the anti-racists, for instance, I can't understand how a Christmas tree, with its roots (as it were) in pagan times could possibly offend anyone who is not as loony as the looniest fundies one has to deal with. To me the most offensive symbol is the one popping up all over the Bible Belt -- a Christian cross decorated in the colours and design of the American flag. Now that's seriously alarming!

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                  The Whispering Swarm: Book One of the Sanctuary of the White Friars - The Laughter of Carthage - Byzantium Endures - London Peculiar and Other Nonfiction
                  Doctor Who: The Coming of the Terraphiles - Kizuna: Fiction for Japan - Modem Times 2.0 - The Sunday Books - The Sundered Worlds


                  Pre-order or Buy my latest titles in the USA:
                  The Laughter of Carthage - Byzantium Endures - London Peculiar and Other Nonfiction - The Sunday Books - Doctor Who: The Coming of the Terraphiles
                  Kizuna: Fiction for Japan - The Sundered Worlds - The Winds of Limbo - Modem Times 2.0 - Elric: Swords and Roses

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                  • #69
                    Hindu or Native American?

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                    • #70
                      Is that Indian Americans or American Indians?
                      I've been told it's not PC to call native Americans Indians, which is fair enough, though technically THEY should be called Americans and all others should be called Itafian Americans, English Americans, Scottish Americans, Irish Americans, German Americans and so on... Or possibly 'settlers' would cover it ?

                      Pre-order or Buy my latest titles in Europe:
                      The Whispering Swarm: Book One of the Sanctuary of the White Friars - The Laughter of Carthage - Byzantium Endures - London Peculiar and Other Nonfiction
                      Doctor Who: The Coming of the Terraphiles - Kizuna: Fiction for Japan - Modem Times 2.0 - The Sunday Books - The Sundered Worlds


                      Pre-order or Buy my latest titles in the USA:
                      The Laughter of Carthage - Byzantium Endures - London Peculiar and Other Nonfiction - The Sunday Books - Doctor Who: The Coming of the Terraphiles
                      Kizuna: Fiction for Japan - The Sundered Worlds - The Winds of Limbo - Modem Times 2.0 - Elric: Swords and Roses

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                      • #71
                        Concerning Danisty's heated diatribe against the apparent horde of so-called "atheists" who appear to be trying to deprive her of her Xmas tree, I'd ask to what extent these remarks are the result of her personal experience and to what extent something she "heard" or "read." I've some experience of the American Southeast (actually, quite a bit), and the media there is to an unfortunate degree in bed with fundamentalist elements, who like to put out exaggerated or distorted stories of this sort. So if you have read it in the local papers, or heard it via local broadcast media, I'd take it with a grain of artificial salt substitute.

                        My suspicion is that she's demolishing a strawman, but I'm willing to listen to evidence to the contrary. In part, I think it's important to define what is meant when one uses the word "atheism." Atheism doesn't require an agenda against religion. It simply states that one finds arguments in favor of theism unconvincing. Too often, since they own the airwaves, the religious right tends to define atheism in terms of their own choosing. I reject these peoples' categorizations utterly, and find them of questionable credibility, at best.

                        When I see the expression "a lot of atheists are on the move against religion" I have to suppress laughter. First, I'd deny it and demand proof; second, I'd point out that, at least in the U.S., there aren't a LOT of atheists. We're a very small, minority.

                        I can understand many people who do not believe in any given religion feeling somewhat oppressed by the extreme ubiquity of Xtian appurtenances that appear to have become part of the U.S. government. I know it bothers me pretty often, and I live in a state where religion is very understated, compared to the American Bible Belt. Sometimes, it seems very valid to raise objections against things such as enforced school prayer, etc. However, freedom of religion, which in THEORY the Constitution guarantees, includes both freedom to choose or reject religious affiliation.

                        One's perception of the logic or illogic attendant on any particular belief is, of course, another matter, but it's a personal one, and doesn't generally surface until such issues are dragged into a public forum.

                        I don't personally go on crusade against religion, nor do I personally know any atheists who do. Crusades are for the other side. What Danisty describes has the ring of a vendetta. If there's any substance at all behind the story, it's my feeling that we aren't in possession of all the facts of the case.

                        Mes 10 centimes.

                        LSN (who respects all religions, but none for me, thanks)

                        Postscript: For those who have argued that the term "atheism" means more than simple disbelief, here's the entry from the Merriam-Webster Dictionary, which strikes me as more respectable than the dubious American Heritage tome:

                        Originally posted by Merriam-Webster Dictionary
                        Main Entry: atheآ·ism
                        Pronunciation: 'A-thE-"i-z&m
                        Function: noun
                        Etymology: Middle French athأ©isme, from athأ©e atheist, from Greek atheos godless, from a- + theos god
                        1 archaic : UNGODLINESS, WICKEDNESS
                        2 a : a disbelief in the existence of deity b : the doctrine that there is no deity
                        This is completely consistent with its etymology. Attaching additional conditions or codicils to the lack of said belief -- i.e., implying that unbelief puts one on a mission of sorts against religious belief, strikes me as either naأ¯ve or disingenuous. I'll opt for the "naأ¯ve" interpretation, and assume that those who accept such a notion have simply permitted certain theists to redefine rhetorical usage. The truth is, how one proceeds from such a state of unbelief is mostly a matter of personal style, rather than a philosophical dictate.

                        In terms of books that discuss the philosophical position of atheism, I'd recommend Bertrand Russell's Why I Am Not a Christian and Walter Kaufmann's Critique of Religion and Philosophy. A more popular, but still fairly rigorous treatment of the subject may be found in George Smith's Atheism: The Case Against God. (Really bad title.) Smith's a Libertarian, which intrudes into his argument at times, but for the most part, he's reasonably sound.

                        Don't let your opponents define your position!

                        P.P.S. After receiving a fair amount of hate mail on this subject, I've removed my e-mail reference. I've better things to do with my time than read religious spam. :roll:

                        Toodles.

                        LSN

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                        • #72
                          The Festival of Light, Diwali, is a Hindu celebration of the return of Rama to his home in Ayodhya. The story of why he had to leave, of his travels and eventual return is told in Valmiki's Ramayana:

                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramayana

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                          • #73
                            I will readily admit that being caught in this sweeping categorization (by implication) of "atheists" acting as a group bothers me to no end. I suggest people take the word "atheist" and replace it with any small splinter or ethnic group of their choosing, and see whether it might give offense.

                            I'd hoped not to see such bigotry loose on this forum Oh, well.

                            The image of atheists on the march is so odd that it keeps returning to my thoughts. It reminds me strangely of a brief passage from Rimbaud's Une Saison en Enfer:

                            آ«Le chant des cieux, la marche des peuples ! Esclaves ne maudissons pas la vie.آ»

                            Weird.

                            LSN

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by L_Stearns_Newburg
                              Atheism doesn't require an agenda against religion. It simply states that one finds arguments in favor of deism unconvincing.
                              Wait a second, while I think the bulk of your statements on the subject are quite fair and reasonable, I don't get what's quoted above at all. Certainly Atheism doesn't require an agenda against religion, but it is the belief that there is no god. Deism is the belief in nature as a deity, as practiced by Benjamin Franklin among others in history, and isn't particularly interested in arguing in favor of convincing anyone.

                              I consider my own beliefs more deist than anything, and if someone asks me about them, as Marko did with this thread, I'm happy to answer. However I am not interested in convincing or converting anyone.
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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Dead-Air
                                Originally posted by L_Stearns_Newburg
                                Atheism doesn't require an agenda against religion. It simply states that one finds arguments in favor of deism unconvincing.
                                Wait a second, while I think the bulk of your statements on the subject are quite fair and reasonable, I don't get what's quoted above at all. Certainly Atheism doesn't require an agenda against religion, but it is the belief that there is no god. .
                                This isn't exactly accurate. Atheism is simply the negation of theism. Theism is "belief in a god or gods." Atheism implies simply the absence of such belief. In fact, it's a non-belief.

                                You need to get your semantics straight.

                                I can cite philosophical references.

                                LSN (who is logged out, and isn't sure if he'll ever log in again)

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