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Moorcock & Religion ?

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  • Moorcock & Religion ?

    I always wondered how do people "Moorcockists" feel about religion,church,and all those holy things.
    And do they celebrate,you know,Christmas,Pope's birthday :),Ramazan,Pasha...
    Mr Moorcock,question is for you,too..!

  • #2
    Emotionally I'm a Christian. I was raised in a Christian culture. But I need a lot of convincing as far as the supernatural's concerned. Maybe my trade in life has made me somehow see how easy all that stuff is to make up!

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    • #3
      I accept Christianity as one worthwhile spiritual model, though I wasn't raised with any.

      I attend a Friends (Quaker) meeting with some frequency as I like the way they worship - everybody sits in silence and if someone feels they are moved by the spirit then they speak. There are some flaws to it like anything, but it works pretty well most of the time, and I particularly like the fact that it isn't led by one person sermonizing.

      I think my personal spiritual beliefs might actually be closer to Deism than Christianity, but I do think Christ was a great prophet who taught some very valuable things. The son of God thing works ok for me, but is not a major focus. Many spiritualist have pointed out that we are "all sons and daughters of God."

      I also, and I realize there's some contradiction here, have a tendency to believe the Hindu pantheist model every bit as much.

      Basically, despite all the horrible things done in the name of the world's religions, I do think they all have some wisdom to teach. I celebrate Christmas because my family does, but the Pope's birthday is of no significance to me at all. Some of what the Pope says is alright, but his anti-gay rights stance is quite damaging.
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      • #4
        religion

        I went to a Seventh Day Adventist school in primary, and got a load of paranoid ranting from a particularly fundamentalist teacher who tried to convince us the devil was coming in the year 2000 and we would all have bar codes stamped on our hands (this would be the mark of satan apparently) instead of using money... well I'm still waiting. Later he was convicted of sexual assualt on a student, and is now in prison. 8O
        An extreme example I know, but it doesn't exactly inspire confidence in Christianity, especially with the current dominance of fundamentalism in America.

        I guess I'm not against spirituality in general but I dislike most organised religion, with the exception of Bhuddism which seems a bit more open minded.

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        • #5
          Oh, BTW I'm not implying because of that one case that Christian fundamentalists are child molesters...just that I think they're mostly a bit unhinged.

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          • #6
            I was brought up fairly Christian Socialist, I still think there's plenty of human decency and common sense to be found in that direction. I'm also a Fortean. That's not a religion, or a belief, it's just a rather anarchic way of thinking. It says basically, "It ain't necessarily so."

            I believe that whatever the Truth is, it's too immense for mere mortals to comprehend more than the occasional scraps and fragments. A moment's insight, into the workings of Reality and their possible ramifications, sometimes being enough to blast people for the rest of their natural life, and not necessarily in a good way (look at David Koresh, or David Icke,
            for example :().

            Whatever the True nature of Reality actually is, even just being able to be aware that it's out there somewhere, makes it worthy of a certain amount of respect and awe, in my book anyway. However, trying to write down the few fragments of insight someone might achieve and fix them between the pages of a book is one thing. Claiming that that Book is the Authorative Version, can only be less than the Truth. It must be a lie, whichever book it is.

            Or, to put it another way: there are many religious groups in the World who all brandish their own particuliar deluxe bound, copy of the Book of the Truth. These groups all insist that their Book is the only true Book of the Truth. They can not all be right, but most of them appear to believe absolutely in the truth of their Belief. I don't believe any God, or Creative Impulse, big enough to set Reality in motion, would really be so mean as to give the Truth to only one group and set them against the rest, so they're most probably all wrong.

            At the very best, all books are only models, fixing human symbols and signs between their pages, in an attempt to communicate one person, or group's perceived Reality, ot Truth, to others. They can only be approximations, fictions. And there's not even a guarantee that someone (St Paul, for example) hasn't come along at some point and tampered with the evidence to insert their own opinions and ideas, neither. Which is why, sometimes, there's more Truth in honest fiction than in all the so called books of 'Truth' in the World.

            Well, that's something of what I believe, anyway.

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            • #7
              I wasn't really brought up with any religion, although my parents are both what you would call basic Church of England (e.g. they went to church when they were youngsters).

              That said, as I think I mentioned in the Behold The Man thread, I'm fascinated by the Bible as a work of literature and I also think it has great spiritual potential, BUT it has been grossly misused over the centuries to justify all sorts of non-Christian behaviour. I'm a member of a Christian forum (sort of the token agnostic there) and I join in some of the debates, trying to question some of the assumptions that they make. But it worries me that a lot of the posters there seem very uncritical and, if the truth be told, not very literate. There are frequent posts about homosexuality, one world religion, the Antichrist, the end of the world etc. It seems as if most of them are just sitting waiting for The End (a peculiar type of Christianity that has flourished since the start of the 20th century).

              It is very interesting to see though how world events are interpreted through their eyes. For example, 9/11, the rise of Islam, the war in Iraq, the tsunami disaster, the development of the EU, the arrival of biometric ID cards, the death of Yasser Arafat, the likely demise of the Pope and so on are all seen in the light of the book of Revelation e.g. biometric ID is looked on as a possible example of the Mark of the Beast in Revelation. It is interesting but you can get sucked into that mindset if you spend a lot of time there.

              The exclusiveness of each religion is what bothers me. As you said AndroMan, they can't all be right, and yet fundamental Christians believe that even many who profess to believe in Christ aren't saved (Roman Catholics to name just one group). And what about all the Jews before and after Christ? Not to mention all Sikhs, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Mormons, Scientologists, agnostics, atheists etc. However, despite my doubts, I can't embrace an atheistsic viewpoint, which I find nihilistic.

              Unfortunately a lot of interpretation of the Bible is based on the English translations - if you go back to, say, the original Hebrew of the Old Testament there is a greater depth to the meaning of much of it than is found in English. I find this a fascinating subject - I hope members here will keep it going and we can get into a good old discussion about it.
              'You know, I can't keep up with you. If I hadn't met you in person, I quite honestly would NOT believe you really existed. I just COULDN'T. You do so MUCH... if half of what goes into your zines is to be believed, you've read more at the age of 17 than I have at the age of 32 - LOTS more'

              Archie Mercer to Mike (Burroughsania letters page, 1957)

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              • #8
                Originally posted by TheAdlerian
                I’m not even sure that some of these religious characters even existed at all. For some people, fictional characters can help shape personality. Although it may sound silly, there have been times when I have been tempted to do bad things, and the thought popped into my head that Superman would never do that. I can think of many other noble characters that helped to shape my behavior over time. It’s not like this stuff is always in my mind but it is in the back.
                Some good points in your post Adlerian. I learned a few things from Spiderman myself, such as the fact that you can be a superhero and still have an unhappy, even tragic, private life.

                Seriously though, there's a lot of wordplay in the original languages of the Bible that doesn't always come across in English. In fact some of it is downright strange, especially in the names, such as having Jesus or Barabbas being released. Barabbas (or Bar Abbas) means 'son of his father' apparently and his first name was supposed to have been Jesus. So you have Jesus (the Son of his Father) and, erm, Jesus Barabbas (the son of his father). Or put another way, Jesus Bar Abbas and Jesus Barabbas. So Pilate might have said 'Who do you want released?' and the crowd may have said Bar Abbas. Or they could have said Barabbas, with the unlucky one facing crucifixion.There's something positively Pythonesque about that. Blessed are the cheesemakers...
                'You know, I can't keep up with you. If I hadn't met you in person, I quite honestly would NOT believe you really existed. I just COULDN'T. You do so MUCH... if half of what goes into your zines is to be believed, you've read more at the age of 17 than I have at the age of 32 - LOTS more'

                Archie Mercer to Mike (Burroughsania letters page, 1957)

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                • #9
                  Well,my parents are religious,but only in the way of respecting of customs,and they never debated religious (in this case orthodox) issues.It has been always dull for me,and I begun to learn more about Christianity,and discovered many other religions.

                  So,I have figured that faith is something very different from religion,and that Jesus really was the great prophet,and I am SURE he would hate the church.

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                  • #10
                    :-/

                    went to a Seventh Day Adventist school in primary, and got a load of paranoid ranting from a particularly fundamentalist teacher who tried to convince us the devil was coming in the year 2000 and we would all have bar codes stamped on our hands (this would be the mark of satan apparently) instead of using money... well I'm still waiting. Later he was convicted of sexual assualt on a student, and is now in prison.
                    This pretty much sums it up,

                    Kapri_Korn.

                    P.S.
                    That teacher of yours also tried to convince that the barcode conspiracy had to do with the U.N./Black Helicopters conspiracy?

                    And of course it was all the jews' and the communists' fault?

                    And what about banning guns?

                    LOL!!!!

                    Geez, those fundamentalist right-wingers are crackpots for real...to bad they now own the u.s.!!!!

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                    • #11
                      Aah! Chiliastic eschatology! A fun example of cumulative paranoia and the misinterpretation of arbitrary datelines.

                      My 'religion': I am a pound or two of salt, and a few buckets of water.
                      I think, feel and love. I am no better and no worse than any other animal, human or otherwise. I try not to 'harm'. I try to tread lightly. Life is a ride to be enjoyed to its full, whilst helping your contemporaries to do the same. When I die, I suspect that will be it. If it ain't, it won't be like anything we expect it to be. The plurality of religious persuasions tends to persuade me of the specific invalidity of any one creed, whilst accepting the importance of belief to the individual. The ultimate spirituality is the blood surging in our veins, feeding the creativity in our minds and the potential to love in our hearts. Eat cake, drink wine, write, go rowing. Do not take oneself seriously. Drink daylight.

                      >Burp!<

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                      • #12
                        The funniest thing about the 'millenium' is that they got the date wrong and celebrated it a year early! Only Cuba got it right, as far as I know, Fidel Castro being a stickler about such things (anything to prove the superiority of the Cuban educational system...)

                        Anyway - I have, at various times in my life, had a great interest in various aspects of religion & mysticism - I have practised paganism and Buddhism, and looked quite deeply at Christianity and Judaism. At other times I have been very anti-religion. I'm involved with Marxism as a political philosophy - but I'm actually a bit sceptical about materialism and not to keen on 'ends justify the means' ethics. I do however think that religions generally end up serving the status quo - so the 'opium of the people' bit has a lot of truth in it. Overall, I think 'sceptical' just about sums me up - but I do practise meditation to keep myself grounded and use tarot cards to stimulate creative thought around sticky problems. Although I believe strongly in the power of rational thought, I find that in practice accepting a little bit of irrationality in life makes me feel saner, if that makes any sense!
                        \"...an ape reft of his tail, and grown rusty at climbing, who yet feels himself to be a symbol and the frail representative of Omnipotence in a place that is not home.\" James Branch Cabell

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                        • #13
                          As my mother once told me "The end of (this) world comes every day, to those that die." I believe that nothing truly 'ends'... it merely changes form. The modern european way of looking at time tends to be linear which differs considerably from the way I was brought up to look at time: as cyclical in nature. I suppose this is the only thing that saves me from giving up hope for the world. I believe in a universal intelligence as well as the law of Karma, and folks let me tell you that though 'Armageddon' may not be close we are likely to experience something that is awfully reminiscent of it. Why? Because man is on the path to imminent self-destruction as we speak, there is no amount of rationalizing that will make that sad truth go away. The environment is being destroyed at an alarming rate, poverty and wealth-disparity is increasing exponentially. Couple that with overpopulation, overconsumption (resource hoarding/scarcity) and even natural variations in climate could spell disaster. The sham that is the 'world economy' and the 'government' is likely to collapse. It is a huge mess we've collectively gotten ourselves into. So either humanity starts doing something to help remedy these problems or these problems will take care of us... in the worst way possible. Another thing in regards to political climes, do you honestly think that leaders like Hitler will not rise again to inflict horrors upon their fellow humans? Many are already in power, bidding their time. They grew unchecked in might while most folks were sleeping...

                          The Political Structure of a Nation - Dependency
                          The primary reason why the individual citizens of a country create a political structure is a subconscious wish or desire to perpetuate their own dependency relationship of childhood. Simply put, they want a human god to eliminate all risk from their life, pat them on the head, kiss their bruises, put a chicken on every dinner table, clothe their bodies, tuck them into bed at night, and tell them that everything will be alright when they wake up in the morning. This public demand is incredible, so the human god, the politician, meets incredibility with incredibility by promising the world and delivering nothing. So who is the bigger liar? the public? or the "godfather"? This public behavior is surrender born of fear, laziness, and expediency. It is the basis of the welfare state as a strategic weapon, useful against a disgusting public.

                          Action/Offense
                          Most people want to be able to subdue and/or kill other human beings which disturb their daily lives, but they do not want to have to cope with the moral and religious issues which such an overt act on their part might raise. Therefore, they assign the dirty work to others (including their own children) so as to keep the blood off their hands. They rave about the inhumane treatment of animals and then sit down to a delicious hamburger from a whitewashed slaughterhouse down the street and out of sight. But even more hypocritical, they pay taxes to finance a professional association of hit men collectively called politicians, and then complain about corruption in government.

                          Responsibility
                          Again, most people want to be free to do the things (to explore, etc.) but they are afraid to fail. The fear of failure is manifested in irresponsibility, and especially in delegating those personal responsibilities to others where success is uncertain or carries possible or created liabilities (law) which the person is not prepared to accept. They want authority (root word - "author"), but they will not accept responsibility or liability. So they hire politicians to face reality for them.

                          Summary
                          The people hire the politicians so that the people can: (1) obtain security without managing it. (2) obtain action without thinking about it. (3) inflict theft, injury, and death upon others without having to contemplate either life or death. (4) avoid responsibility for their own intentions. (5) obtain the benefits of reality and science without exerting themselves in the discipline of facing or learning either of these things. They give the politicians the power to create and manage a war machine: (1) provide for the survival of the nation/womb. (2) prevent encroachment of anything upon the nation/womb. (3) destroy the enemy who threatens the nation/womb. (4) destroy those citizens of their own country who do not conform for the sake of stability of the nation/womb. Politicians hold many quasi-military jobs, the lowest being the police which are soldiers, the attorneys and C.P.A.s next who are spies and saboteurs (licensed), and the judges who shout orders and run the closed union military shop for whatever the market will bear. The generals are industrialists. The "presidential" level of commander-in-chief is shared by the international bankers. The people know that they have created this farce and financed it with their own taxes (consent), but they would rather knuckle under than be the hypocrite. Thus, a nation becomes divided into two very distinct parts, a docile sub-nation [great silent majority] and a political sub-nation. The political sub-nation remains attached to the docile sub-nation, tolerates it, and leeches its substance until it grows strong enough to detach itself and then devour its parent.
                          Let history serve as a reminder of what can, no what will happen. Hitler spoke very convincingly about corruption and even praised Jesus and God! But we all know how people love using such things as a deceptive cover for their true beliefs and intentions which are anything but godly:

                          http://www.livingstonemusic.net/hitlerandtheoccult.htm

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                          • #14
                            As trans-epochally truthful and insightful as ever, Athenys.

                            PS. You've got very pointy ears.
                            PPS. Hang on! I've got very pointy ears. Jings! :D

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                            • #15
                              Of course, all Abh of the Abliarsec clan have them...it's all about the ears ...

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