Announcement

Collapse

Welcome to Moorcock's Miscellany

Dear reader,

Many people have given their valuable time to create a website for the pleasure of posing questions to Michael Moorcock, meeting people from around the world, and mining the site for information. Please follow one of the links above to learn more about the site.

Thank you,
Reinart der Fuchs
See more
See less

Multiverse!?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • Michael Moorcock
    Site Host
    • Dec 2003
    • 14278

    #16
    I guess I could have fun teaching know-nothing Republicans how to sing The Red Flag.

    It's always been a disappointment to me that the minute I have my huge USSR flag nailed up in my garage the damn wall comes down.

    Here's what I like about Texas.
    I was in the local cowboy bar soon after I'd arrived and people were talking politics. I knew it was risky but I couldn't tell a lie, I had to tell my new friends that I'd voted Socialist in the last election.
    At which time the piano stopped playing (actually it was Willie Nelson on the juke box) and a sudden silence fell.
    On the other side of the table a huge man in a massive black stetson rose slowly up to blot out the light from the neon Coors sign. This, I realised, was my moment of truth. I took a deep breath and stood ready for the broadside as he reached towards me across the table.
    Here was a fight I didn't need. The vast hand fell on my shoulder and, in a voice like thunder mixed with molasses, the cowboy said: "Mahkl, yore a troo Texan.'
    Which taught me that Texans value moxie more than they care about politics. I suspect that could be true elsewhere in the US...

    Pre-order or Buy my latest titles in Europe:
    The Whispering Swarm: Book One of the Sanctuary of the White Friars - The Laughter of Carthage - Byzantium Endures - London Peculiar and Other Nonfiction
    Doctor Who: The Coming of the Terraphiles - Kizuna: Fiction for Japan - Modem Times 2.0 - The Sunday Books - The Sundered Worlds


    Pre-order or Buy my latest titles in the USA:
    The Laughter of Carthage - Byzantium Endures - London Peculiar and Other Nonfiction - The Sunday Books - Doctor Who: The Coming of the Terraphiles
    Kizuna: Fiction for Japan - The Sundered Worlds - The Winds of Limbo - Modem Times 2.0 - Elric: Swords and Roses

    Comment

    • Wanderlust
      Lemon Curry?
      • Apr 2008
      • 3627

      #17
      The vast hand fell on my shoulder and, in a voice like thunder mixed with molasses, the cowboy said: "Mahkl, yore a troo Texan.'
      Excellent.
      Any fool can make a rule, and any fool will mind it.

      ~Henry David Thoreau

      Comment

      • Robin
        Citizen of Tanelorn
        • Apr 2011
        • 235

        #18
        Love it. Now I want to go to Texas.

        Comment

        • Nerfherder
          Hugh Everett's travel agent
          • Feb 2012
          • 48

          #19
          Originally posted by Michael Moorcock View Post
          On a recent Nature programme on the Multiverse David Deutsch didn't get a breath of a mention.
          Nice shout out Mike. Einstein acknowledged the existence of a 5th dimension however he still to his dying breath would not except the fact that our path thru the 5th was not pre-ordained. The main conflict between the proponents of Determinism and Anti-Determinism was out lined in the fight that erupted at the 1927 Copenhagen Institute Symposiums between Einstein and Niels Bohr. The acknowledgement of the 5th dimension as a plane of almost infinite possibilities made a great feast for SF writers everywhere, thusley the multiverse was born.

          Experiments with particle entanglement today show us that data can be transmitted via 5th dimensional hyperspace folding thus proving the existence of an near infinite plane of in the 5th dimension where all possibilities exist.

          Comment

          • Robin
            Citizen of Tanelorn
            • Apr 2011
            • 235

            #20
            Actually, I always wondered Mike - did your original Multiverse ideas come from "scientific thinking" or was it more of a philosophical thing?

            (Philosophical is the wrong word - I know what I mean. Anyway, when I "studied" Physics they called it Natural Philosophy, so it's probably a stupid question...).

            (Edit : Did I just ask "SF or Fantasy"? I don't really get genres...)
            Last edited by Robin; 08-05-2012, 12:34 AM.

            Comment

            • Michael Moorcock
              Site Host
              • Dec 2003
              • 14278

              #21
              In 1961 I suspect my response was similiar to others who didn't like the idea of the Big Bang logically ending in maximum Entropy. (I also had a sort of black hole in the story, dragging everything back in!) A philosophical/metaphysical response rather than a scientific one, but I'm pretty convinced this is the general temperamental response of people like me (who want a multiverse crammed with diverse phenomena).
              Temperamentally I really wanted the Multiverse. This was a development of the 5th dimension idea, but that wasn't enough for me. SF writers had played with the idea of 'alternate space-time continua' and used it to great effect in both sf and fantasy fiction (I liked the Harold Shea stories as a kid, for instance) but I don't believe there was an actual 'multiverse' described -- that is a vision of a complex multitude of worlds existing outside our familiar notion of s-t with 'orbits' and predictable courses through which a 'rogue' system might progress in an irregular path. So while this was theoretical physics (or metaphysics, if you prefer) it was either applied to fantasy stories or science fiction. That idea was to do with the 'branching off' notions of quantum physics. I wasn't describing that theory. I was describing 'nests' of alternatives ('quasi-infinite').
              For about twenty years or so I've liked the idea of similar universes co-existing at greater or lesser mass -- invisible to us because they are either much larger or much smaller. I continue to call these 'planes' (as in most of the fantasy stories) because it creates less confusion when moving from a fantasy to a science fiction to a non-genre story. As far as I know no other writer has tried to produce 'charts' to accompany theories of a multiverse. Most people seem still to be grappling with linear notions of time and space rather than what I called 'intratemporal' notions in which everything exists at the same moment. In the past I've found that if you put an idea out there some genius eventually produces the math.

              Pre-order or Buy my latest titles in Europe:
              The Whispering Swarm: Book One of the Sanctuary of the White Friars - The Laughter of Carthage - Byzantium Endures - London Peculiar and Other Nonfiction
              Doctor Who: The Coming of the Terraphiles - Kizuna: Fiction for Japan - Modem Times 2.0 - The Sunday Books - The Sundered Worlds


              Pre-order or Buy my latest titles in the USA:
              The Laughter of Carthage - Byzantium Endures - London Peculiar and Other Nonfiction - The Sunday Books - Doctor Who: The Coming of the Terraphiles
              Kizuna: Fiction for Japan - The Sundered Worlds - The Winds of Limbo - Modem Times 2.0 - Elric: Swords and Roses

              Comment

              • Robin
                Citizen of Tanelorn
                • Apr 2011
                • 235

                #22
                Originally posted by Michael Moorcock View Post
                That idea was to do with the 'branching off' notions of quantum physics. I wasn't describing that theory. I was describing 'nests' of alternatives ('quasi-infinite').
                Right. I had read a lot of your novels before I got anywhere near University and definitely preferred the ideas I found in them. No doubt the lack of a requirement for lots of hairy calculus influenced my preference, but I still can't help feeling there's something just a bit too silly about some of the notions based on quantum physics - even if they are consistent with what is known, so is the existence of God. And, equally, of the Lat...

                Originally posted by Michael Moorcock View Post
                Most people seem still to be grappling with linear notions of time and space rather than what I called 'intratemporal' notions in which everything exists at the same moment.
                That is a pity, but maybe it's like when you give small children Christmas presents and they get completely absorbed by playing with the wrapping paper and ignore the presents. They get round to them eventually. Mind you, by that time they've completely forgotten where they came from and think it's just things they always had.

                Originally posted by Michael Moorcock View Post
                I also had a sort of black hole in the story, dragging everything back in!
                I could never decide if "black hole" was a bad way to describe an obese neutron star because hole sort of implied "hole in something with some other kind of something at the other end", or a good choice for the same reason (I thought "black magnet" might be better, but that's just a different kind of bum steer). I'm fascinated by the way our vocabulary influences our thinking and even more by how it can mislead us. And not just in physics, cultural differences really get me thinking. When I was in Manila recently I couldn't help putting together the, to me, absurdly high number of transsexuals I met there with the fact that Tagalog doesn't have words for "he/she", "his/her", etc.

                Incidentally, I remember reading that four was the highest number we could accurately visualise (without using patterns, which we are good at). I spent a while trying to imagine various objects and, sure enough, after four I found myself having to arrange them into patterns.

                That's what I like about people. Grappling with infinity when our minds aren't really up to mastering the concept of five. Moxie?
                Last edited by Robin; 08-06-2012, 07:19 AM.

                Comment

                • Michael Moorcock
                  Site Host
                  • Dec 2003
                  • 14278

                  #23
                  Similarly I've worked out that most cats can't count after two. It goes 1 - 2 -- a lot. Our new cat, who spent 7 years in a shelter only interacting in any significant way with other cats, goes around the house sometimes still looking for more cats. He's satisfied with a household of four most of the time but reduce it to three and he gets confused, going around counting up to two and then wondering where the lot is (+1).
                  I suspect cats are perfectly familiar with the multiverse, however.
                  I'm very bad at math. The only time I enjoyed it was algebra, which my school taugnt from age 7. When I left that school and was taught according to a conventional syllabus I really started to get confused. And very frustrated. I was laughed at for asking when we were going to do algebra.
                  The odd thing is that I can work out quite complex structures and imagine pretty complex cosmological models but I am useless at ordinary arithmetic. And I mean I'd be baffled by what the average 10 year old can do!

                  Pre-order or Buy my latest titles in Europe:
                  The Whispering Swarm: Book One of the Sanctuary of the White Friars - The Laughter of Carthage - Byzantium Endures - London Peculiar and Other Nonfiction
                  Doctor Who: The Coming of the Terraphiles - Kizuna: Fiction for Japan - Modem Times 2.0 - The Sunday Books - The Sundered Worlds


                  Pre-order or Buy my latest titles in the USA:
                  The Laughter of Carthage - Byzantium Endures - London Peculiar and Other Nonfiction - The Sunday Books - Doctor Who: The Coming of the Terraphiles
                  Kizuna: Fiction for Japan - The Sundered Worlds - The Winds of Limbo - Modem Times 2.0 - Elric: Swords and Roses

                  Comment

                  • Nerfherder
                    Hugh Everett's travel agent
                    • Feb 2012
                    • 48

                    #24
                    Originally posted by Robin View Post
                    Actually, I always wondered Mike - did your original Multiverse ideas come from "scientific thinking" or was it more of a philosophical thing?

                    (Philosophical is the wrong word - I know what I mean. Anyway, when I "studied" Physics they called it Natural Philosophy, so it's probably a stupid question...).

                    (Edit : Did I just ask "SF or Fantasy"? I don't really get genres...)

                    Here's Mike's answer to me...

                    http://www.multiverse.org/fora/showthread.php?t=26046

                    Comment

                    • flutegirlrockz
                      Champion of the Balance
                      • Jul 2004
                      • 1350

                      #25
                      Originally posted by Michael Moorcock View Post
                      Similarly I've worked out that most cats can't count after two. It goes 1 - 2 -- a lot. Our new cat, who spent 7 years in a shelter only interacting in any significant way with other cats, goes around the house sometimes still looking for more cats. He's satisfied with a household of four most of the time but reduce it to three and he gets confused, going around counting up to two and then wondering where the lot is (+1).
                      I suspect cats are perfectly familiar with the multiverse, however.
                      I'm very bad at math. The only time I enjoyed it was algebra, which my school taugnt from age 7. When I left that school and was taught according to a conventional syllabus I really started to get confused. And very frustrated. I was laughed at for asking when we were going to do algebra.
                      The odd thing is that I can work out quite complex structures and imagine pretty complex cosmological models but I am useless at ordinary arithmetic. And I mean I'd be baffled by what the average 10 year old can do!
                      Don't forget that in my day (i'm 47) we had scientific calculators to help us do algebra and these days I guess they are either still using them or using computers some way. I'm amazed that you were doing algebra at 7. When I was 7 I said to some other kids in my class that the sun was bigger than the earth and they laughed at me. Anyway have you ever heard of the Omniverse. A comicbook writer called Mark Gruenwald came up with the idea that if there were an infinife number of parallel universes than all fiction but mostly sci fi, fantasy and comics were part of the Omniverse so for example your Multiverse, The Marvel Universe(or Multiverse), The Star Trek Universe and basicly everything that's been writen are all part of bigger Omniverse?

                      Comment

                      • Michael Moorcock
                        Site Host
                        • Dec 2003
                        • 14278

                        #26
                        Rudolf Steiner school. I think it's always been part of the syllabus -- including learning two languages and various other unconventional subjects for young kids.

                        Pre-order or Buy my latest titles in Europe:
                        The Whispering Swarm: Book One of the Sanctuary of the White Friars - The Laughter of Carthage - Byzantium Endures - London Peculiar and Other Nonfiction
                        Doctor Who: The Coming of the Terraphiles - Kizuna: Fiction for Japan - Modem Times 2.0 - The Sunday Books - The Sundered Worlds


                        Pre-order or Buy my latest titles in the USA:
                        The Laughter of Carthage - Byzantium Endures - London Peculiar and Other Nonfiction - The Sunday Books - Doctor Who: The Coming of the Terraphiles
                        Kizuna: Fiction for Japan - The Sundered Worlds - The Winds of Limbo - Modem Times 2.0 - Elric: Swords and Roses

                        Comment

                        • Peacemaker
                          Denizen of Moo Uria
                          • Jul 2011
                          • 154

                          #27
                          Originally posted by Michael Moorcock View Post
                          I guess I could have fun teaching know-nothing Republicans how to sing The Red Flag.

                          It's always been a disappointment to me that the minute I have my huge USSR flag nailed up in my garage the damn wall comes down.

                          Here's what I like about Texas.
                          I was in the local cowboy bar soon after I'd arrived and people were talking politics. I knew it was risky but I couldn't tell a lie, I had to tell my new friends that I'd voted Socialist in the last election.
                          At which time the piano stopped playing (actually it was Willie Nelson on the juke box) and a sudden silence fell.
                          On the other side of the table a huge man in a massive black stetson rose slowly up to blot out the light from the neon Coors sign. This, I realised, was my moment of truth. I took a deep breath and stood ready for the broadside as he reached towards me across the table.
                          Here was a fight I didn't need. The vast hand fell on my shoulder and, in a voice like thunder mixed with molasses, the cowboy said: "Mahkl, yore a troo Texan.'
                          Which taught me that Texans value moxie more than they care about politics. I suspect that could be true elsewhere in the US...
                          This thread has really opened up a lot of discussion. As a staunch conservative American I would like to throw in my two cents. I live just up the road from you, Mike, in southwest Oklahoma. It is a similar environment to Texas without as many metropolitan enclaves. So, from this perspective that I have seen that where and how a person is raised from his youth means nearly everything concerning how a person stands politically. The United States is one of the most vast countries in the world when you look at geography and ethnicity and thus you will find people from coast to coast with equally diverse backgrounds that have molded them into what they are.
                          .
                          I seriously don't think it is hardly possible to change a person's thinking once they have formed their core values. Even more, I don't think I can convince a Yellow Dog Democrat why my philosophy is so important to me just as I cannot understand his. You will also find differences in people by the era they grew up in. Depression children seem to have a distinct belief when it involves the role of government.
                          .
                          With this said, my growing up where I did, I value things such as a balance between rugged individual freedom and strong law and order. On one hand, I believe the federal government should leave me alone if I want to be a hunter or a gun-toting citizen where I can protect and sustain myself and not rely on others to do that. On the other hand, if a person chooses the life of crime, I feel that strong punishment, even capital punishment, is warranted. In the words of John Wayne (as Rooster Cogburn talking about the real life hanging judge Parker) killers are entitled to a fair trial and a fine hangin'. On a rugged frontier, resources are limited so swift severe justice is sometimes the most warranted and has been engrained to the culture such that even over time you cannot remove it by trying to implant by force a metropolitan view into the animal. You look at folks who grow up in densely populated metropolitan areas of the country where strict codes and adherence are needed to maintain any semblance of order, you develop a mindset of people who accept being told how to behave behave in certain aspects. They like protection and thus are more open to ideas such as being told what they can eat, what they can drink, or what they can drive for the sake of the whole sort of like Spock's Vulcan philosophy that the good of the whole outweighs the good of the individual. Thus I see this in the United States blatantly and you can see this every four years on the presidential election map.
                          .
                          Anyhow, it is good that we can have this civil discussion of diverse views and I will defend your right to express your liberal beliefs with my own life if need be.
                          .
                          By the way, you are my favorite author of all time and I always enjoyed your fantasy Eternal Champion books. Your work is probably my biggest inspiration as the writer I am striving to become. I hope you have many more years of health and prosperity and it is an honor to have you in my country as long as you plan to stay.
                          Check out J. Wade Harrell Fantasy World blog:

                          http://jwadeharrell.wordpress.com/about/


                          Comment

                          Working...
                          X