Announcement

Collapse

Welcome to Moorcock's Miscellany

Dear reader,

Many people have given their valuable time to create a website for the pleasure of posing questions to Michael Moorcock, meeting people from around the world, and mining the site for information. Please follow one of the links above to learn more about the site.

Thank you,
Reinart der Fuchs
See more
See less

Eternal Champion - reincarnation or possession?!

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Eternal Champion - reincarnation or possession?!

    Dear Mike/Mike's fans,

    I've mentioned on here beforethat I'm currently re-reading the Eternal Champion books and am enjoying them immensely. I'm currently reading Volume 2 of the Millenium edition (I'm not reading them in that order), the three novels in which the Champion remembers his past lives. And that book has got me thinking - in the last two of those novels the champion seems to take possession of an existing hero (Urlik and Prince Flamadin), and even though he has some of the hero's memories it does not seem that he has actually lived through that character's life from birth up until that point. My question therefore is how this relates to the incarnations where he does not remember his true nature. Were Elric, Hawkmoon, Corum, Bastable et al, always the champion or has the champion taken possession of these characters at some point, perhaps around the time their story begins? I'd be glad to hear anybody's thoughts on this, and of course, if you have time I'd love to know how you see this Mike. Thanks,

    JC

  • #2
    Interesting point about the Eternal Champion 'spirit' taking possesion before the story begins, I like that idea! It is highly possible.

    I think the answer is both - sometimes it takes possesion part way through a life and sometimes it occupies the body from birth. I think in the case of the core champions its from birth.

    Well I have my own pet theory of the Eternal Champion which is hinted at in some of Mike's Novels.

    Now this is my own take on the ideas and not something I would or could wish to 100% proof - its most likely not correct at all but I like it - after the books are for entertainment and I find my take entertaining.

    Last edited by Magnum Opus; 08-24-2011, 02:08 AM.
    Please Check out my Musical Dedication to work of Michael Moorcock

    THE END OF ALL SONGS
    We are looking to collaborate with anybody else interested in making Moorcock themed music - contact me here or on soundcloud.

    Comment


    • #3
      Well as usual for Mike, there appear to be 2 (or more?) reasons why the Champion became the Champion;
      Maybe there is no one reason. Maybe there's a different reason in each reality. We are dealing with the Mercurial Mr M after all.

      As for the possession issue, I find that interesting too. John Daker / Erekose doesn't appear to have been the original Erekose, neither does he appear to have been the original Urlik. The answer is, I don't know!

      Comment


      • #4
        Reason the champion became the champion

        Thanks for both your responses (and so fast!). You've both brought up another issue that I find interesting. I always thought that the champion had begun as the original von Bek in Warhound and the World's Pain. I've yet to get around to reading that again so I can't remember exactly what had happened. But I always assumed that that charcater had become damned and became the eternal champion. (I don't think this counts as a spoiler because my memory of the novel is far too vague to actually include any details! ) I guessed that was why that book had been placed first in the Millenium omnibus editions. In addition to my original question I'd be curious to hear what others make of this.

        Comment


        • #5
          According to Mike, time in the multiverse is not linear so everything is happening at the same time. That means there never really was a 'first' champion.

          You see, it's... it's no good, Montag. We've all got to be alike. The only way to be happy is for everyone to be made equal.

          -:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-

          Image Hive :-: Wikiverse :-: Media Hive

          :-: Onsite Offerings :-:


          "I am an observer of life, a non-participant who takes no sides. I am in the regimented society, but not of it." Moondog, 1964

          Comment


          • #6
            Doesn't Mike also say...

            _"For an eternity Allard was alone in an icy limbo where all the colours were bright and sharp and comfortless.
            _For another eternity Allard swam through seas without end, all green and cool and deep, where distorted creatures drifted, sometimes attacking him.
            _And then, at last, he had reached the real world – the world he had created, where he was God and could create or destroy whatever he wished.
            _He was supremely powerful. He told planets to destroy themselves, and they did. He created suns. Beautiful women flocked to be his. Of all men, he was the mightiest. Of all gods, he was the greatest."

            Comment


            • #7
              And he says the reader's always right!
              You see, it's... it's no good, Montag. We've all got to be alike. The only way to be happy is for everyone to be made equal.

              -:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-

              Image Hive :-: Wikiverse :-: Media Hive

              :-: Onsite Offerings :-:


              "I am an observer of life, a non-participant who takes no sides. I am in the regimented society, but not of it." Moondog, 1964

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Governor of Rowe Island View Post
                I had a period where I thought Gaynor to be an eternal champion - but a champion whom felt he was eternal was just near eternal. That he was a failing eternal champion who refused to 'play the game'. After further I reading I kind of gave up one that idea.

                Last edited by Governor of Rowe Island; 08-25-2011, 04:08 AM. Reason: Fixed spoiler tags
                Please Check out my Musical Dedication to work of Michael Moorcock

                THE END OF ALL SONGS
                We are looking to collaborate with anybody else interested in making Moorcock themed music - contact me here or on soundcloud.

                Comment


                • #10
                  Originally posted by Michael Moorcock View Post
                  Yep. Both. Generally that's my answer. Or 'all's' another one...
                  Hehe, that what I love about the multiverse - that anything you can imagine does exist! It gives great room for readers own interpratation and ideas. After all its entertainment and not doctrine of any kind - if that makes sense?
                  Please Check out my Musical Dedication to work of Michael Moorcock

                  THE END OF ALL SONGS
                  We are looking to collaborate with anybody else interested in making Moorcock themed music - contact me here or on soundcloud.

                  Comment


                  • #11
                    Originally posted by Magnum Opus View Post
                    It is said that the Eternal Champion is repaying for a great sin commited. The Erekose books say that this is the slaying of the Eldren then the Human race - however I never truly bought into the idea that this was the sin.
                    Interesting point. I hadn't given it much thought but your comments reminded me of something from the Corum series (I believe). In one of those stories there is an antagonist (Graynor the Damned I think) who is basically described as the exact opposite of the Eternal Champion... he even switches sides between law and chaos and it mentions something about betrayal.

                    So perhaps the EC is a split personality and this other character is the other half. The EC gallivanting through the multiverse correcting the imbalance caused by his other half. An interesting thought.
                    Last edited by ThanosShadowsage; 08-31-2011, 07:50 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #13
                      Originally posted by Michael Moorcock View Post
                      Yep. Both. Generally that's my answer. Or 'all's' another one...


                      Yes we discussed this here I recall (posts 19, 20):

                      http://www.multiverse.org/fora/showt...rnal+champions

                      Comment


                      • #14
                        It would seem that the split personalities idea fits well as various protagonists are described as 'aspects' of the champion, if Im not mistaken.
                        Please Check out my Musical Dedication to work of Michael Moorcock

                        THE END OF ALL SONGS
                        We are looking to collaborate with anybody else interested in making Moorcock themed music - contact me here or on soundcloud.

                        Comment


                        • #15
                          Originally posted by Governor of Rowe Island View Post
                          According to Mike, time in the multiverse is not linear so everything is happening at the same time. That means there never really was a 'first' champion....
                          That was always my non-conceptual concept about all that. Once linearity is removed, anything can happen anywhere at anytime, even the same apparent time. Makes sense to me.

                          "When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained."
                          - Mark Twain, notebook entry, 1898.

                          Comment

                          Working...
                          X