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A daft question about different multiverses

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  • Rothgo
    Champion of the Unbalanced
    • Aug 2006
    • 6663

    #31
    No reason that it couldn't work that way EJA (though it would require all of Mike's multiversal philosophy regarding space/time and scale to be "wrong" - that could be the case in a 'larger' evolving space however). I just don't know why you want to crow-bar them together: seems unnecessary and IMHO, diminishes them all, as they would all be misinterpretations of the larger whole - diminishing their creativity to fit your model.

    Comment

    • ThanosShadowsage
      Eternal Companion
      • Dec 2003
      • 666

      #32
      I think you're just complicating an otherwise simple concept EJA. Consider the Multiverse in general, basic Quantum Theory, which is a collection of (infinite?) dimensions in which all of causality is explored. Why would we need to consider the possibility of multiple multiverses when anything could happen within just one?

      In one specific dimension Elric fights crime on the streets of Gotham City with a banana named Mournbringer which sucks out the potassium of it's victims leaving them drained and unable to fight back. If you can imagine it, it's there somewhere in the far reaches of the Multiverse.

      Comment

      • David Mosley
        Eternal Administrator
        • Jul 2004
        • 11823

        #33
        I'd query the theory on the grounds that the DC Universe's 'multiverse' (in whatever form it's taking this week!) clearly co-exists with the Marvel Universe's multiverse - given the number of inter-company cross-overs there have been over the decades - but company-wide crossovers, such as Civil War or Blackest Night, can be used as evidence that the DCU and the MU don't exist in the same continuum. I think if you can square that particular circle then you might have the beginnings of a theoretical model you can use to discuss all the other fictional multiverses that you want to tie together.

        Personally, I think Mike's vision of the Multiverse is sufficient to encompass any other single narrative - and I would count something like the DCU multiverse as a 'single narrative -since he's already - you might wish, since from the outset (cf. 'The Eternal Champion' novella) he's brought other narratives, such as Artos (Arthur) and Roland, into his to give it depth.
        _"For an eternity Allard was alone in an icy limbo where all the colours were bright and sharp and comfortless.
        _For another eternity Allard swam through seas without end, all green and cool and deep, where distorted creatures drifted, sometimes attacking him.
        _And then, at last, he had reached the real world – the world he had created, where he was God and could create or destroy whatever he wished.
        _He was supremely powerful. He told planets to destroy themselves, and they did. He created suns. Beautiful women flocked to be his. Of all men, he was the mightiest. Of all gods, he was the greatest."

        Comment

        • ThanosShadowsage
          Eternal Companion
          • Dec 2003
          • 666

          #34
          Originally posted by David Mosley View Post
          I'd query the theory on the grounds that the DC Universe's 'multiverse' (in whatever form it's taking this week!) clearly co-exists with the Marvel Universe's multiverse - given the number of inter-company cross-overs there have been over the decades - but company-wide crossovers, such as Civil War or Blackest Night, can be used as evidence that the DCU and the MU don't exist in the same continuum. I think if you can square that particular circle then you might have the beginnings of a theoretical model you can use to discuss all the other fictional multiverses that you want to tie together.
          My personal view on this issue is that any attempt to categorize DC and Marvel "Multiverses" seperately from any other form of Multiverse is delusional and merely a tool used by said companies to explain why they're separate rather than just admitting that they have a direct financial competition with one another.

          It's like having something you can't explain (or don't want to explain) to a child and just saying "It just is." or "God did it." So when an uber-nerd asks why two different superheroes living in the same city never seem to acknowledge eachother's existence they have a clean and simple reply "They're in separate dimensions." rather than supplying the honest answer "We didn't want to pay our only major competitor royalties for referencing their property in our comics."

          The fact of the matter is they could have avoided this whole quandary just by acknowledging that it is impossible for anyone to quantify the full extent of a/the multiverse. Even if they inhabit the same multiverse it is just as unlikely for DC and Marvel to cross paths as it is if there are two (or more) multiverses. It's all a matter of scale, you could hide the entirety of a multiverse within a multiverse... so why bother creating an illusionary distinction between the two? Sub-sections within the same multiverse would be far more logical.

          Comment

          • EJA
            EJA
            Denizen of Moo Uria
            • Mar 2008
            • 121

            #35
            Well, Mike has said "The reader is always correct."

            Also, being an avid fan fic writer, if I ever did a story were Hawkmoon crosses paths with the Captain Britain Corps (this is just an example), I'd like to have a way to reconcile the different interpretations of the Multiverse that both franchises have.
            Last edited by EJA; 10-25-2010, 06:38 AM.

            Comment

            • ThanosShadowsage
              Eternal Companion
              • Dec 2003
              • 666

              #36
              Originally posted by EJA View Post
              Well, Mike has said "The reader is always correct."

              Also, being an avid fan fic writer, if I ever did a story were Hawkmoon crosses paths with the Captain Britain Corps (this is just an example), I'd like to have a way to reconcile the different interpretations of the Multiverse that both franchises have.
              Ah. I've been approaching this discussion through a realistic perspective. I didn't realize you're a fan fic writer. As a fan fic writer it is logical for you to attempt to merge the separate and conflicting multiverses. I suppose my response to that would be; how did DC/Marvel do it? As was mentioned previously they have crossed paths before. I imagine at least one of the occurrences was explained in-depth.

              If you wish to explain the cross over in a more Moorcockian fashion you could argue the existence of multiple multiverses and suggest that they aren't stationary objects but rather floating (orbiting?) bodies on a quasi-plane of existence and when the two (3? 4? etc) are in alignment their subsequent dimensions cross the divide and bleed into each other causing a rift upon the fabric of space-time as the two (or more) realities briefly merge, producing a "child dimension" where any "cross over story" you want would be possible.

              Comment

              • EJA
                EJA
                Denizen of Moo Uria
                • Mar 2008
                • 121

                #37
                Sounds good to me, ThanosShadowsage!

                Comment

                • Michael Moorcock
                  Site Host
                  • Dec 2003
                  • 14278

                  #38
                  Well I did do a 'Bible' for DC some time ago where I elected to rationalise the two different kinds of superhero (magic, like Cpt Marvel and 'realistic' as in Superman) and it drew my own multiverse, of course, and the DC universe together in many ways, but nobody ever asked me to do it for Marvel...

                  Pre-order or Buy my latest titles in Europe:
                  The Whispering Swarm: Book One of the Sanctuary of the White Friars - The Laughter of Carthage - Byzantium Endures - London Peculiar and Other Nonfiction
                  Doctor Who: The Coming of the Terraphiles - Kizuna: Fiction for Japan - Modem Times 2.0 - The Sunday Books - The Sundered Worlds


                  Pre-order or Buy my latest titles in the USA:
                  The Laughter of Carthage - Byzantium Endures - London Peculiar and Other Nonfiction - The Sunday Books - Doctor Who: The Coming of the Terraphiles
                  Kizuna: Fiction for Japan - The Sundered Worlds - The Winds of Limbo - Modem Times 2.0 - Elric: Swords and Roses

                  Comment

                  • In_Loos_Ptokai
                    Abrogate all rituals
                    • Apr 2007
                    • 803

                    #39
                    Originally posted by pdwright42 View Post
                    Originally posted by In_Loos_Ptokai View Post
                    Originally posted by The English Assassin View Post
                    I'm sure Jerry Cornelius must have read a Marvel comic or two (probably between shags) over the years...
                    A shag is a largish waterbird that sits on a rock between fishing for meals. I didn't know they were legible.

                    Evidently this is some superpower Jerry Cornelius is gifted with, that probably would fit quite well in the Marvel Multiverse ... the home of random superpowers!

                    Reading shags ... who'd-a thunk it?
                    A 'shag' is also a dance in America, started (I think) in the southern US, esp in South Carolina.

                    Another day, another useless fact.
                    The truth is probably the dance got started from the frantic motions Jerry would make while reading a random shag, to avoid getting his eyes pecked out by said indignant shag. I know someone who lost his eye to a shag - so Jerry would've become quite a dancer ...
                    sigpic Myself as Mephistopheles (Karen Koed's painting of me, 9 Nov 2008, U of Canterbury, CHCH, NZ)

                    Gold is the power of a man with a man
                    And incense the power of man with God
                    But myrrh is the bitter taste of death
                    And the sour-sweet smell of the upturned sod,

                    Nativity,
                    by Peter Cape

                    Comment

                    • thingfish
                      sairfecht
                      • Sep 2007
                      • 15756

                      #40
                      Could they be meaning these lovely ladies Loos?
                      They look like a handful even for Jerry-

                      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxPsXPCR5MU
                      "I hate to advocate drugs,alcohol,violence or insanity to anyone,but they've always worked for me"

                      Hunter S Thompson

                      Comment

                      • EJA
                        EJA
                        Denizen of Moo Uria
                        • Mar 2008
                        • 121

                        #41
                        Just thought I'd mention, when it comes to multiple multiverses (Mike's, DC's, Marvel's, etc, etc, etc), I've always seen them in my mind's eye as galaxies in space, with each star contained within them being a whole universe, and some even possessing satellite dwarf-multiverses orbiting/connected to them. And as we know that real world galaxies sometimes pass through one another, who's to say something similar doesn't happen with multiverses, with varying results? Yeah, I know it probably isn't anything like that really, but I reckon it's a nice analogy.

                        Comment

                        • irontoad
                          Nomad of the Time Streams
                          • Nov 2013
                          • 37

                          #42
                          internal logic

                          When writing in the fantasy genre its important to establish the internal logic that governs how magic works. The characters can then uncover this secret through thier experiences or become victims of the system. This governing logic may also be hidden from the reader, who must determine it by deduction or comparison with the real world. MM and George rr martian worlds both have a strong internal logic. look to this for compatability with other characters and situations. of course if your just writing a computer game style item it dosent matter

                          Comment

                          • Michael Moorcock
                            Site Host
                            • Dec 2003
                            • 14278

                            #43
                            The only way it works for me logically is the idea of 'nesting' universes, separated by scale and thus unseen by one another but sensed. That's why I have aether ships going 'upscale' and 'downscale' -- essentially changing their mass and size. But I'm also not sure if a geometrical model is a useful one when a 'natural' model (branches on a tree, say) seems to correspond better with life as we know it...

                            Pre-order or Buy my latest titles in Europe:
                            The Whispering Swarm: Book One of the Sanctuary of the White Friars - The Laughter of Carthage - Byzantium Endures - London Peculiar and Other Nonfiction
                            Doctor Who: The Coming of the Terraphiles - Kizuna: Fiction for Japan - Modem Times 2.0 - The Sunday Books - The Sundered Worlds


                            Pre-order or Buy my latest titles in the USA:
                            The Laughter of Carthage - Byzantium Endures - London Peculiar and Other Nonfiction - The Sunday Books - Doctor Who: The Coming of the Terraphiles
                            Kizuna: Fiction for Japan - The Sundered Worlds - The Winds of Limbo - Modem Times 2.0 - Elric: Swords and Roses

                            Comment

                            • EverKing
                              Eternal Companion
                              • Jan 2004
                              • 951

                              #44
                              Originally posted by Mike
                              But I'm also not sure if a geometrical model is a useful one when a 'natural' model (branches on a tree, say) seems to correspond better with life as we know it...
                              If we are going to revise the visual from geometric to natural then I pose my vision--indeed the image / model I use in my own (as-yet-unrealized) writings--the Pando Aspen colony in Utah: an entire grove of aspens sharing a common root system.

                              The break down is pretty straight forward...
                              • Each twig is a universe
                              • The branches are universe clusters (neighboring universes sharing common features)
                              • Limbs are groups
                              • Each tree represents a multiverse
                              • All connected through common pathways (the roots)


                              I use this image, not as a literal interpretation but representative/illustrative of how an omniverse could work. I like it because it provides readily available mythological imagery (the World-Tree) and really opens the door to new ideas when thinking through its construction and odd features (knots, fungus, rot, parasites, seeds, etc.).

                              It has a few other features that are useful for plot as well such as utilization of vertical distance to define scale--the higher branches are upper-worlds with greater vision of what is below and where time is relatively slower and the roots act as a sort of underworld where time is relatively faster. Since the scale of one's birth determines the rate of physical entropy (aging) but the mind is tied to the perception of the current scale this means a person from say scale 3 moving up to scale 4 would age more quickly than a scale 4 native whereas the person moving down to scale 2 would age more slowly than a scale 2 native. This can produce the illusion of agelessness or even immortality when a being of sufficiently higher scale moves to the lower scale--thus explaining the idea of angels or gods.

                              The other image associated with this that I have used is that of the sapling. An old tree that is part of the system may occasionally sprout a new sapling directly form its base creating a new multiverse directly tied to the parent and accessible through one particular point of scale.

                              Using this image, then, we can connect the dots to the disparate fictional universes and multiverses and see their inter-relatedness in the root system.

                              Where the Marvel and EC universes intersect (or how) is really open for interpretation. I've always felt there is no need to create too many convoluted structures to rectify ideas with Mike's Multiverse because he already created it simply and elegantly enough that it encompasses every possibility. The apparent different rules governing the various Marvel universes could simply be because of limited understanding from those living within those universes or could be some effect playing on that particular region of the multivese (those neighbouring scales in the geometric, or perhaps a single limb in the Pando Model).
                              "In omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro"
                              --Thomas a Kempis

                              Comment

                              • GuyLawley
                                Champion of the Balance
                                • Aug 2004
                                • 1479

                                #45
                                The Mandelbrot set seems to offer a nice 2 dimensional model of a scaled Multiverse.
                                It comes in at around 22 minutes in this fun documentary but the build-up is great; it's worth watching from the beginning.
                                Concepts like geometrical monsters, and self-similarity (Spammer Gain... and again.... and again) are so Moorcock it's uncanny.
                                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmxJ1KDR_s0

                                Which just led me to think, has anyone modelled Mandelbrot in 3D? Well, of course they have!
                                https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=ma...bih=852#imgdii=_

                                Some of which starts to look more like H P Lovecraft than M J Moorcock!
                                http://krzysztofmarczak.deviantart.c...al-2-138950342

                                Yikes!

                                Comment

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