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I'm Confused!

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  • I'm Confused!

    Hey, all.

    Either it's my brain refusing to except the complexity/simplicity of the multiverse, or I've missed something entirely...

    OK, the issue is regarding Gaynor the Damned - a rather splendid character, if I may say so. My question is probably something of continuity (although I should by now realise that the multiverse doesn't particularly follow a linear path) where he is concerned.

    If I remember rightly, Elric first came across Gaynor in Revenge Of the Rose, where he had already the earned end of his name, yet in The Dreamthiefs Daughter, Elric is already familiar with him, but it is in this tale that he gets 'The Damned' added to his title. Of course, his appearance in Corum's tale could fit in at around the same time or after the events of The Dreamthief's Daughter. Thinking about it, that would probably be afterwards - Corum lifting his mask suddenly makes more sense.

    I'm a little confuddled, I must say. The huge scope of Moorcock's work has never left me feeling confused up until now, as no matter what order I read the books in, things always slot into place.

    Is it just me? :?
    Call me cockey, but if there\'s an alien I can\'t kill, I haven\'t met him and killed him yet!

  • #2
    My take on things...

    Part of what makes the multiverse interesting is its non-linearity. Time and space loop back on each other, which creates problems for people. In Sailor on the Seas of Fate, Corum remembers something that happened between he and Elric that hadn't yet happened to Elric. So Elric (of course) had to brood on it.

    It stumped Elric, so I guess you're in good company :lol:

    The second ether could also give you some answers. Jack K. would tell you it has everything to do with realizing different possibilities in the first and second ether, which would also account for the time/experience disjuncture.

    A much simpler (and maybe more likely) answer would be "because Mike thought it would be cool." :D


    • #3
      Not in MY multiverse!

      Well that may be the case in the "cheaper seats" multiverse, but in MY all expenses paid, 10% cash back 3.9% APR infinity of spheres, the Elric channel is on all the time.
      AND Jhary gets a bigger part, not just saying "message from starfleet, captain..."
      "What do you think you're doing? This is a closed set!"


      • #4
        Part of the problem is that it also depends on which editions of the books you read!! Like the end of the recent reprint of Bastable now references the Second Ether, a scent of roses and parallels Gaynor and Stalin - which I'm sure it didn't when I first read it back in the early 80s.


        • #5
          I had that same confusion, but thought it to be entirely the intent of Mr. Moorcock to create it. Increasingly the books which deal with the Multiverse seem to deal with that weird circular time. I don't know if I like that or not, but it's not my place to decide. It does make sense that those of us from a linear time line would find it frustrating. I do home MM actually comments on this as the author's clarification is always very welcome.
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          • #6
            The Steel Tsar, the last book in the Bastable series, needed some serious work, I thought. When the chance came to revise the Bastable books for the omnibus volumes, I did the most revision on that book. Most of the books are not heavily revised.
            However, I have been saying, pretty much since the beginning of my writing career, that the stories repeat themselves. It is up to us to make changes in them! And, of course, it's the changes we want to record. Time has the appearance of linearity, just as it has the appearance of being cyclic. It is neither, of course. If we create linear time, it's no wonder we get a lot of problems in our understanding of the multiverse. But if we think of space as a dimension of time, we get an altogether different understanding which allows a broader ability to negotiate these dimensions.
            Stories do change in reading and the telling, of course, and some of what I'm trying to show in these EC books is the folk process, if you like. The way in which we constantly re-invent our myths to keep working for us.
            I'm responding to your request for an answer but must warn you I'm VERY tired... :)

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            • #7
              Moorcock's Miscellany > Q&A > Q&A ◦ Questions for Mike & News > The Q&A Archives > The Sporting Club Square Q&A Archive > The Conjunction Archive > Gen: Let me get this straight....
              Originally posted by Muckyshoe View Post
              Date: 01-16-01 05:16

              So let me get this straight.... Jerry Cornelius is the only being in existence and EVERYTHING is but a figment of his imagination? I mean, he is everybody in the books at some time or another... how can he be Rakhir the Red AND Elric at the same time in the same book? Oh I know he can, that's imagination for you, but isn't there anyone else in the universe with poor Jerry? i thought Lord Jagged might be but I'm not sure... I was reading the Golden Barge recently and was a bit perturbed when MM lamented how he might have chosen another path of writing if he hadn't of got the go ahead for the Elric stuff... What?! thank the Runestaff he got the moolah!
              Originally posted by Muckyshoe View Post
              Date: 03-22-01 04:34

              Oh, so now I am the only one in existence... ha ha ha, yes very funny, very funny indeed. If no-one replies, then I shall have to respond to myself from now on...
    , where to begin... what a pale shadow Von Bek was of Elric in the Dreamthief's Daughter, for an Eternal Champion aspect he was crap compared to the Melnibonean Marvel. Why doesn't Von Bek remember this adventure in "The Dragon in the Sword"? Why was he described as blue eyed and blonde in said book?
              Originally posted by Muckyshoe View Post
              Date: 03-23-01 05:47

              Well... still no answer from the other planes... well, then... I often wonder what MM thinks of other writer's attempts at the Multiverse. Talbot's "Luthor Arkwright" was a nice try, Alan Moore's "Captain Britain" was excellent, whilst comic book companies other attempts always seem to be pale in thinking out differences.

              MM's work sometimes seems like the Dancers at the End of Time as the ultimate puppeteers (are they the lords of the higher planes?) (and if so is Cornelius Arioch?) who are so bored that they put these ants (champion aspects) to work on the amoebas (the rest of the world) to relieve their boredom? So ultimately the Runestaff or the Grail or the Black Sword loses their spiritual meanings and become mere plot devices?
              Originally posted by Muckyshoe View Post
              Date: 06-18-01 06:30

              Riiiiiiiiiiiiight... now NO-ONE is answering ANYTHING... Jhary, what have you done? The Matter transmitter alright? Please confirm it is so.
              Then again, if no-one is listening or reading this then what will I expect in return...
              ...Why am I asking you?

              What do I want in the next Multiverse novel? I think I'll have an explanation of the Companion aspect please for twenty. Or Michael Moorcock's take on Bowie's "Major Tom" creation.
              Now... does anyone know the way to Tanelorn?
              Originally posted by Jhary-a-Conel View Post
              Date: 06-19-01 08:03

              The basic problem is this: multiverse is not optimally designed. Look for a redesign in about 6 weeks.

              Originally posted by Muckyshoe View Post
              Date: 09-21-01 05:12

              How are we now? I have received my book, many thanks!
              Originally posted by muckyshoe View Post
              Date: 10-18-01 06:34

              Has the Shifter passed me by? Is there anybody else out there but me and Eric Zollman (surely Lord Jagged himself?!) By the Runestaff and the Blank Flag, someone reply and get the Multiverse wound up and running again!
              Originally posted by Muckyshoe View Post
              Date: 10-23-01 06:46

              Act IV, Sc. ii
              (The scene is an old bookshop. Our hero enetrs stage left to rapturous applause from the incandescent audience. Turning, he addresses no-one in particular...)
              Muckyshoe:"Can the worst truly have come to pass? Has Moorcock left this mortal coil and hauled anchor with the Spammer Gain? Have you all been but figments in my imagination?"
              (There are shouts form the audience "No!" "Avast!" Women are seen to physically swoon at the thought, men hold their heads in shame)
              (With arms open in askance)Muckyshoe: "Well, what are we going to do now?"
              (There are cries from the audience "What are WE to do?")
              (Muckyshoe, the great Thesp that he is, raises his visage to the baying masses)
              Muckyshoe: "Back to yours."
              (The curtain falls on a truly wonderful performance, as Muckyshoe leaves the stage and the auditorium with the audience for a uproarious knees-up at the End of Time.
              Originally posted by lucas of Alexandria View Post
              Date: 10-27-01 04:35

              It appears, Jhary really is having a little trouble with the workings of the Multiverse (possibly the morphail effect, or indeed Muckyshoe, the shifter), however this should prove there is more than entity in the Multiverse. I too would like to believe Jagged is Arioch incarnate (however this seems too simple,in this complex Multiverse...)
              Originally posted by Muckyshoe View Post
              Date: 10-29-01 05:35

              SO..... at last another voice in the Mists! Or have I started talking to myself again? Is that chappie Jhary passed on or has he gone into hiding? Lucas of Alexandria, lets hope not!
              Originally posted by muckyshoe View Post
              Date: 11-23-01 06:37

              Eric Zollman, Dyvim Slorm, Lucas of Alexandria and Muckyshoe all treaded carefully up the stairs of Tanelorn's central tower.
              "Remind me again, why we are here?" asked the slightly built thief.
              "Dyv," replied Muckyshoe, "doesn't the truth about what happened to Jhary a-Conel mean a thing to you?"
              Dyvim Slorm, rogue that he was, cocked his head to one side. "It would if finding him meant we had a future..."
              "Enough!" retorted Lucas of Alexandria, the light shining off of his hoplite armour. His great crest towered above all of them in imperious might. "Is it not enough that we have made it to Tanelorn the Eternal?"
              "Tick box 'no'" asided Eric Zollman, the caustic wit and wizard of the quartet. How long had he travelled the spheres on his quest for the Shifter? It had certainly taken a toll on his mind. But his power was second to none. When he spoke, others listened (or at least made an effort to look like they were.)
              ">snnrkkk!!<" snorted both Dyvim and Muckyshoe in a failed attempt to cover their laughter.
              "By the Runestaff," replied Lucas "I should never bothered!"
              Last edited by The Cosmic Balance; 08-10-2009, 12:02 PM. Reason: Reformatted for clarity ('though to tell the truth I'm not sure what point is being made here)
              "What do you think you're doing? This is a closed set!"


              • #8
                From memory, Elric and Corum meet twice, once Elric remembers meeting Corum while Corum does not recall Elric, the other time Corum remembers Elric, and is a little hurt when Elric claims not to have met him. I always took the rather simplistic view that in the Multiverse personal pasts and futures were not the same thing as an "objective/absolute" past and future.


                • #9
                  Originally posted by muckyshoe View Post
                  Moorcock's Miscellany > Q&A > Q&A ◦ Questions for Mike & News > The Q&A Archives > The Sporting Club Square Q&A Archive > The Conjunction Archive > Gen: Let me get this straight....
                  Originally posted by Muckyshoe View Post
                  Date: 01-16-01 05:16

                  So let me get this straight.... Jerry Cornelius is the only being in existence and EVERYTHING is but a figment of his imagination?
                  Hi Mucky ol' pal ol' pal, long time.

                  One of us must have their reverb mixed too wet, I had to go stand outside to understand your question.

                  One possible line of investigation concerning the "all Jerry all the time and everywhere" question might follow from that an uncertain school of thought which holds that everyone encountered in a dream is a different aspect of the dreamer, and as dreams flow where and when they will, except under the guidance of a profoundly disciplined lucid dreamer, I guess the underlying question would be "Whose dream is it?"

                  I'll bet that was no help at all. Race you to the time centre, winner buys the last round.
                  "A man is no man who cannot have a fried mackerel when he has set his mind on it; and more especially when he has money in his pocket to pay for it." - E.A. Poe's NICHOLAS DUNKS; OR, FRIED MACKEREL FOR DINNER


                  • #10
                    Indeed it had been a long time. If you look at the timings of my posts a whole TWO YEARS have passed... I am still looking for the Cornelius aspect in MOTHER LONDON but as I haven't finished it, I suppose I could be patient, at least, for a little while.

                    Its good to get back though. Even though I am not the best of wits, I love writing all my nonsense over in the Eternal Companion bit, even though I expect others hate it.
                    "What do you think you're doing? This is a closed set!"


                    • #11
                      Cheers for finding all my old posts! It was (or will be) a pleasure to keep the faith whilst the miscellany was lost in the timestreams!
                      "What do you think you're doing? This is a closed set!"